Judy? Is that you?
I’m not buying the angle that “Judy was a gay rights supporter, ergo gays like The Wizard of Oz.”
If it was about Judy Garland, including or not including or father or daughter, why not “A Star Is Born” or “Girl Crazy” or “Gay Purr-ee?”
If it’s all about Oz, why the Judy Garland version of the movie? Why not the 1902 stage play or the 1910 film, or the 1921 or 1925 versions of Oz?
Also bear in mind that it didn’t break even when it came out — it made $3M when it came out, but it cost $3.8M to make. (For the time, admittedly, that’s still one heck of a lot of tickets sold.)
There have been plenty of people in Hollywood, for some time, who were either themselves gay, tolerant of gays, or downright supportive of gays. There have also been plenty of other books and plays written — during Baum’s time and before! — that have used some kind of gender-changing schtick, apart from Oz. I name you one for free: “As You Like It” by William Shakespeare. I could probably find another half-dozen books/movies/plays from 1900-1930 with similar themes.
So I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it doesn’t much matter who made it, or who was in it, or who directed it, etc. My best guess: just like the Beatles, it was in the right place at the right time.
One, it’s a children’s film, which has the right undercurrents of alienation and belonging, of inadequacy and acceptance — so for people likely to resonate with the theme, it catches them early. This may be why it continues to catch the attention of such people today.
Two, though it was released the 30s, it was re-re-released and re-played on TV during the birth of the television era for millions of boomer-age children. This may be why it attained iconic status, so widely, so quickly.
Three, it’s got monkeys. (Hey, I said I was guessing.) 
Single best post of the month. Pithy, yet speaking volumes.
Brilliant.
I’d also heard the Garland/Stonewall connection. I’m surprised to hear it is an urban ( urbane ? ) myth. Got cites that prove it is a myth ?
Cartooniverse
From p. 260 of the book Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution, by David Carter:
Finally some relief! Sorry about before.
Here goes a little backup on some of my stuff. I’ll get it though, just gimme a list. I didn’t make this shit up. I was just regurgitating what I’d ran across in my quest.
I’m not going to list the exhausting amount of sites that I have read during the course of this debate. I will address some of the questionable points you’ve made with limited cites.
Did Gable have Cukor kicked off the set of GWTW?
http://www.glbtq.com/arts/cukor_g.html
http://www.emanuellevy.com/article.php?articleID=1841
There’s a few cites including the actors words on the subject. Not that this is a great issue regarding Oz just one of many.
Let’s try another one:
Sexual content in pre 1939 versions of GWTW?
bolding mine
NOTE: L. Frank Baum played a role in most if not all of these pre '39 Oz films. Either as director, producer or screenwriter. So don’t go there.
Again, there are numerous cites available if you just look.
Why do I mention pre-1939 Oz? To establish that Oz was already in Hollywood and that they weren’t the happy colorful fantasy that we all know and love.
Maybe that’ll do for now. Be back w/ more soon. 
~JB
Without having looked at all of your links, i question the value of the ones I did look at, since they are unsourced. One inparticular, I’m sorry to say, you’re completely misreprsenting.
This has nothing to do with any alleged homoseual past of Gable’s and everything to do with Gable’s fear that Cukor, having a reputation as a “women’s director,” would favor the women over him in a part that Gable was already insecure about doing.
All the quotes posted were accessable by the links I provided.
The one Hepburn quote did not address homosexuality. It was meant to show there was animosity between Gable and Cukor. Hepburn simply supports the idea that Gable may have been part of the reason Cukor was terminated. Whatever the reason was is debateable. If you read the previous quotes, Cukor said he knew of Gable’s gay past and that was part of the reason.
Gable dismissed the rumor…thereby admitting the rumor existed.
But then you’ve got a quote where Gable says he wouldn’t be directed by a fairy.
You’ve got both Cukor and Gable quotes admitting at the very least the rumor is true. You should know that whether a rumor is true or not matters little with the public, they’re not going to ignore it either way.
Why are you so relunctant to admit that there was some problems between Cukor and Gable regarding their sexual past?
But, when you get right down to it. As far as the OP is concerned, the only thing that matters is, was Cukor gay or not?
Where is this “last interview Cukor gave”? The article lists no sources for any of the quotes.
Why should we take your machine-gun cites as anything but opinion, poorly written and even poorer researched, by you and the persons who wrote some of your links.
You spend an inordinate amount of time talking about a 1925 film by Semon. You somehow think that Baum had something to do with that movie. Hard to believe, since Baum died in 1919.
This reminds me of an exchange from Orgazmo:
“I am Sancho!”
“That’s great… but what do you do?”
“What do I do? I am Sancho!”
“And?”
“And there are many Geoffs in the world, and many Toms as well. But I… am Sancho!”
“And?”
“Are you Sancho? No, you are not Sancho. Neither is Scott Baio Sancho. Frank Gifford, he is not Sancho. But I…”
“You… are Sancho!”
Yeah, anyway, I’d never noticed the “Gay” themes in The Wizard of Oz (seeing it more as a perfect encapsulation of 1930s escapism, what with the Depression being on and so forth), but I can’t say it’s something I ever looked for, either.
I can see y’all are going to fight me tooth and nail over every detail.
1)Can all agree that Cukor was gay?
AND that he was temporary director on Oz if only for three days. right?
2)Can we also agree that Judy Garland was the lead actress and is an icon in the gay community?
Hey, I’m gonna try and get there one step at a time. I will discuss relevance if and when I get some idea of what we agree on.
Let’s try it again.
If you’ll keep up with the links you’ll see that Oz was a huge success and widely popular for years. Much more popular than the 1939 version when it initially came out.
BTW, I didn’t say Baum did the 1925 version. Just that he played an active role in most of the pre 1939 Oz material.
The 1925 references were to simply show the differences from the '39 film.
I merely wanted to show evidence that Oz had a large fan base prior to '39.
If I can get that point conceded, I will continue and attempt to show how that is relevant.
So, do I get that point or not?
If so, I will continue.
This sounds dangerously like circular logic to me: Judy Garland is (is, present tense) because she was (past tense) in The Wizard of Oz, which is an iconic film among gays because Judy Garland was in it.
Or are you suggesting that Judy Garland, at age 17 in 1939, was a huge icon among gays when the movie was released?
No, I just want concession that she IS. We’ll get to the at what point did she become later. okay?
Okay… let’s try another point. I claim that the word Gay was used in the early 1900’s as reference to a persons sexual practice and/or preferences.
Okay according to Wiki… the term gay was used early on to refer to sexual promiscuity and then later in reference to homosexuality. Then we get to the middle part of the 1900’ and the definition changes due to social norms. Not again until the 60’ or 70’s does it reacquire sexual connotations.
Point conceded? Yes or no?
Now if there are no objections I’m gonna claim these points on agreement.
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Cukor was a temporary director in the 1939 version of TWOO and he was a homosexual.
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Judy Garland was the lead actress of Oz and she IS currently considered a gay icon.
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The Wizard of Oz was a Success before the 1939 film.
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The term “gay” was used in the past in reference to a person’s sexuality.
If we can agree thus far let me know.
[hijack]I can’t help wondering what kind of “reputable” source there could be for such a thing. A receipt signed by Gable himself?
For example, plenty of people have insisted that James Dean engaged in a certain amount of gay sex while at the same time plenty of others just as strongly deny it. What kind of “reputable” source should we expect to confirm or disconfirm these claims? I can’t think of anything other than rigorously examined explicit photographs!
Fish’s reply in Post 62 seems as good as anyone’s to me. I’m a gay man, but from my own experience and that of my gay friends, I have only the most meagre clue as to why TWoO has been singled out, at least as seen in the media, to have some special resonance with gay males. I’ve never actually met anyone who fits the media’s stereotype in this regard. Personally, I still like it just because I liked it as a little kid and it’s a good, fun story with a nice message, nothing more.
So I think that TWoO is homosexually iconic only to a subset (and probably a small one) of gay males, and primarily because it was held to be iconic to the much more closeted and cliquish Old Homosexuality that an earlier poster mentioned. In my opinion, the rest is just plain old stereotyping and media misrepresentation and perpetuation of obsolete mythology, just like the old saw about gays liking show tunes (another thing that no gay man I know actually likes).
There’s a gay Canadian cartoonist named Maurice Vellekoop who drew a story about this specifically, in an early issue of** Drawn and Quarterly**. If I recall correctly, he said the movie was perfect, that gay culture has a preoccupation with perfection, and that it was of a piece with Swan Lake in this regard. Not the clearest explanation, but he gave it an honest shot.
Doesn’t that only push the question back a step? On what possible basis could it be said that “gay culture has a preoccupation with perfection”? And even if it does, why should that be the case any more than the idea that TWoO is iconic to a small subset of gay males for no very compelling reason at all?
One more point before I knock off for awhile. Y’all hash it out and decide if I’ve made any points to which you can agree. I promise to tie it all up nice and pretty for you later.
Let’s try to establish whether a gay culture existed in film prior to 1939 Oz.
http://www.musicals101.com/gay4.htm
"As silent film became a major industry, there were numerous intentional depictions of homosexual stereotypes, usually for comic effect – effeminate cowboys, etc. However, few film goers of the early 20th Century were aware of the tremendous contribution gay talent made to early Hollywood. "
"Top silent stars Ramon Novarro and William Haines had legions of female fans who never suspected that they were homosexuals – well, the public didn’t know, but damn near everyone in the film industry did. "
"Homosexual stereotypes had been common in silent films. It is perhaps appropriate that the first depiction of a blatantly homosexual character in a sound film was in the first all-sound movie musical, MGM’s The Broadway Melody (1929). "
"There were many other examples of obvious homosexual characters in early musical films. For example, the first screen version of the stage hit The Desert Song (1929) "
“Heterosexual actor Bert Lahr minces and camps as The Cowardly Lion in The Wizard of Oz (MGM 1939), but since his limp-wristed character shows no attraction to other males, code administrators viewed his sexuality as a non-issue. While we’re on the subject of Oz .”. .
"Why did The Wizard of Oz become a lasting focal point of gay culture? Consider the core plot: a misunderstood child yearns to escape a boring middle-American upbringing and learns that one must face life with brains, heart and courage – a blueprint that carries special resonance for many gays and lesbians. "
Just read the article I think it establishes the fact that there was a strong gay culture at work in Hollywood in the early days.
concede? disagree?
So what’s that?
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Cukor was a temporary director in the 1939 version of TWOO and he was a homosexual.
-
Judy Garland was the lead actress of Oz and she IS currently considered a gay icon.
-
The Wizard of Oz was a Success before the 1939 film.
-
The term “gay” was used in the past in reference to a person’s sexuality
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There was a large Gay culture at work in Hollywood from the start.
see ya later~JB