Why is the US behind educationally?

In order for the US to be top ranked in mathematics, and the sciences, then we would need to change our educational system. Our ranking is important because it distinguishes us with the top scientists and thinkers in the world at that time. For the US to be lagging, then we know we are doing something wrong. In order to be beating other countries, we would need to change the types of teachers that we have. In order to attract more intelligent people to become teachers, we would need to make certain qualifications, restrictions. We would also need to raise the teacher salary. We could start by influencing the government.

In my opinion we already have too many qualifications and restrictions on people who could be good teachers. One of the worst things that has happened to education in this country is requiring a degree in education for teachers.

I’ve heard it said that about 2/3 of schools in the US are world class (not top of the heap but among the top), but the other 1/3 are what you’d find in the third world (poor, immigrant and minority schools) which brings the average down. No idea how true it is, but the argument is that US schools aren’t consistently 20th or so, it is that a reasonable majority are pretty good and the rest are shoddy. The average ends up being 20-30th.

Either way, why does it matter? Being able to outscore the south Koreans in math in 5th grade isn’t going to matter when you are working in your 40s.

http://thepurplechronicle.tumblr.com/post/5621388541/the-myth-of-americas-failing-schools

Way to little homework, too little time in the classroom (my kids are on winter break for a week this week) and class size is too big. I mean, if you want to distill it down.

Now Asian schools SUCK big time. it’s an up or out system starting in first grade. Best kids scholastically are in the front row, get the most help and it weeds out from there.

Is it important to you that you are top ranked?

What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland’s School Success

I don’t know why I’m bothering to post this article, because it’s not going to change anyone’s minds. Americans are too steeped in the competitive mindset to adopt anything close to what Finland has. You can’t even say the word “equality” without someone yelling “SOCIALISM!” And we all know that’s teh evil.

Every educational development used in the US has focused on competition. Magnet schools, charter schools, school vouchers, “accountability” testing…the success of all of these rests on inequality. And they perpetuate inequality. We don’t really want to bridge the achievement gaps that exist between groups, though we talk like we do. No, we actually want there to be “bad” schools. For the same reason why an insecure teenage girl chooses an uglier girl to be her friend. We need someone to make us feel good about our position in the hierarchy.

If the poor school on the other side of town starts getting test scores comparable to the rich school, will there be confetti parades in the streets? No! The tests will simply get harder.

I’m not an educator, so I don’t know what the solution is. I just know that what we are doing now is not working for the common good. No one really cares about the “common good” any more. To speak of such a thing is to be a giant Commie pinko. Or Rick Santorum, but only when it comes to fetuses and sex.

I’m a former educator, and that was a very interesting article. Part of the reason I’m a former educator is I got fed up with some of the problems in our system. The Finnish education official in the Atlantic article described their system in a way that makes me think they haven’t so much solved those problems as cut a Gordian knot.

While reading the Wikipedia article on education in Finland I felt as if I was reading a science fiction / fantasy story. The philosophic basis of their system is so different from ours that I have a hard time picturing it.

In short, I don’t think it could work here, much as I would love to see it.

Incidentally, there was a recent film made about the Finnish system which I’m going to order. It’s called The Finland Phenomenon: Inside the World’s Most Surprising School System

If you control for poverty level, the US is not at all behind. So, if you wanted to improve their overall rank you might want to look at pulling people out of poverty rather than trying to change the educational system.

Well, the US is a big country. If we took our top 20% school districts, which would represent about 60M people (20% of 300M people = 60M), how would we compare?

This is a complex problem with many needs but it doesn’t help that we have ridiculously low educational expectations.

Parental and community expectations are more important than economic status.

http://www.usca.edu/essays/vol152005/ozturkrev.pdf

Of course you can’t stay elected on a school board or employed as a teacher if you tell the parents to wake up and start asking more from your kids.

There’s a lot to this question and I think even the assumption that the US is “far behind” other countries is erroneous and based upon a simplistic reading and reporting of tables. Disregarding popular press stories meant to sell magazine articles, the 2009 PISA report stated:

(PDF, page 22)

So, statistically speaking, for reading scores, 8-9 countries score higher (depending upon your sample (OECD vs. non-OECD)), 39-51 scored lower, and the US wasn’t statistically different from 15-odd countries (including the UK, Germany, Australia, Denmark, and Hungary who all ranked below the US in a number of measurements.) This is far different from the usual reportage which breathlessly has the US 17th or 34th or whatever.

Even in mathematics, while it is true that the US scores lower in relation to other countries compared to reading levels, statistically the difference between countries is not as horrible as the press likes to make one believe:

(PDF, page 32)

The mathematically-challenged popular press reports blasts that the “US ranks 25th in math!” without bothering to consider if there is any true difference between the US score of 487 and the UK score of 492 - the US is behind and that’s that! The fact that the US is behind by a difference of 1%, and whether that 1% is meaningful… well, that’s not discussed.

In addition, a lot of people use these rankings, look at policy differences between the US and higher-ranked countries, find one or two policies to their liking, and say - “See? That’s why we’re failing - we’re not like Country X in that the US doesn’t…”

However, they don’t take into account the fact that countries ranked lower than the US also have the same policy and policy goals as some countries ranked higher, or that countries ranked higher than the US have differing policy goals than other countries ranked higher than the US.

For example, the above Atlantic article about Finland’s lofty goal of “equality” and their thesis is that this “equality” is what drives Finnish scores. But this thesis, that “equality” is the answer, isn’t proven - South Korea has a number of private schools and ranks higher than Finland in reading and math. If “equality” is the answer, then why does S. Korea do better with a lesser emphasis on it than Finland?

Anyway, I can go on and on, but I don’t think I answered the OP’s question at all, so I’ll get off my horse and go back to being stupid or whatever it is that we Americans do. :wink:

I think we’re deeply ambivalent about education - not just the value of it, but the morality of it.

On one hand, we fear the rise of an intellectual elite. On the other, we fear the rise of a mass of educated individuals who know their rights.

I think we need to decide what schools are for. Is it to prepare people to support themselves? Is it to prepare competent adults who can function in society? Is it to encourage self-actualization? Is it to pass on our collective values? Is it to master knowledge about the world? Is it to socialize people so that they know how to get along? Is it to prepare people to be wise voters? Is it to provide the cores of communities?

Right now, schools are trying to do all of those things to different degrees because they are all “good”. But I don’t think any one institution can do all those things at once, and so we flounder. Different people have different goals for education and they all assume that their goal is shared. People are working at cross purposes and don’t even realize it.

According to PISA the US ranks 14th in reading, 17th in science, and 25th in reading. If you average that together we are around 19th overall. The US is also tied for 19th in average IQ. It seems that our educational results are right in line with our intelligence. The reason the US is behind is not our educational system, you just can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Have you read the scientific research regarding the value of homework in learning?

I would recommend investigating this topic (hint: it’s almost worthless, or even worse at younger ages, around high school it becomes more effective).

We decided. Schools are to keep kids busy while their parents are at work. :frowning:

I have yet to see an objective study that measures IQs across national boundaries. Care to share?

The ranking is from IQ and the Wealth of Nations by Richard Lynn. Some of the numbers on third world countries are controversial but the first world numbers seem very well done.

Speak for yourself. I do not want there to be bad schools and I know of no one else who does. I’d much rather that every school be good. Right now, the government itself admits that half of government-run schools are failing by its own standards. Vouchers allow poor children trapped in those failing schools to escape to private schools where success is allowed. Magnet schools and charter schools allow some individual schools to ignore the government rules that drag down our education system. Needless to say, all those approaches set up a sharp contrast between those who want as many children as possible to be in failing schools and those who want as many children as possible to be in successful schools.

There is a distinct anti-intellectual bias in the culture of the U.S. I believe this is the root of the problem.

I used to be an educator myself and left, well, frankly, because the pay was crap and no way to raise it. No promotions, no cost-of-living adjustments, no step pay increases…just the same salary each year being eroded by inflation. The lack of compassion from anyone about this situation was also striking. EVERYONE thinks they should be paid more than a teacher. EVERYONE thinks teachers, if anything, are overpaid.

You also have people flaunting their ignorance. How many times have you heard someone say they are bad at math and chuckle and it is obvious they do not see this as a bad thing/flaw? How about Lit? etc?

I found out during my teaching ‘career’ that people only care about the ILLUSION of providing an education to the young. They don’t actually want to pay for the real thing…just the illusion.

It is a flaw in the American base culture. Every culture has it quirks/strengths/weaknesses. This is one of the U.S’s. Hopefully it will not turn into a fatal flaw.

Like I said, above, the US is a very large country, so it makes sense that our average is going to on the low side. The average isn’t so important as the absolute number of schools with high rankings. We can pit our top 20% against any country with 60M people in it, and I bet we’d come out ahead.