Why is there no cheese in Chinese food?

[China_Guy]

@Nicodemus2004

Were cows or goats around in ancient China? Waterbuffalo or Yak cheese? Eesh!

yak cheese can be incredibly good. had some in a monastary that was a very rich, ripe soft cheese that was simply suberb. of course that was in tibet and there are plenty of those who don’t think it’s part of china

[xbuckeye]

@Blake

There is a difference between fermentation and digestion, but it’s not that.

Digestion is simply the breakdown of food into chemically and physically smaller particles that can be taken into the living cell. It’s that simple. It doesn’t require any oxygen or anything at all much beyond water, enzymes and substrate. It’s not really correlated in any way to fermentation, and all fermenters need to engage in digestion unless fed on very simple diets.

Memo to Blake, there is oxygen in water

@Blake

Fermentation is (to quote) “Internally balanced oxidation-reduction reactions of organic compounds with the release of energy occurring in the absence of externally supplied electron acceptors”.

Or to put it more simply, fermentation is just the burning of food for energy when there is no oxygen available.

Memo to Blake, oxygen is always available, the important determination is the amount of oxygen available.

@Blake

Fermentation can result in the formation of organic acids, though it often doesn’t. But most importantly fermentation inevitably results in the formation of gases. In the case of alcoholic fermentation that gas is CO2, exactly the same gas as produced aerobic digestion. But fermentation can just as easily produce methane and a range of other gases. So the fact that fermentation is occurring isn’t any sort of protection against “a gut full of gas”. In fact quite the opposite, Because the gut lacks oxygen any fermentation will inevitably resulting a gut full of gas.

That’s true whether the fermentor is a magic Lactobacillus or E. coli.

Not necessarily. Carbon dioxide is highly soluble in the blood so excess CO2 in the gut is not a huge deal until you make it faster than the bloodstream can absorb it. Fermentation is not one pathway, but hundreds. Without oxygen as a terminal electron acceptor, you can make acids and alcohols and a few other things. I suggest you read a basic text on bacterial metabolism and get back to us.

[Mathochist]

@Walloon

From China’s Growing Market for Dairy Products:

Wait… Australia’s in Asia?

[Mathochist]

@Blake

Some human populations are mutants with defective genes so the lactose intolerance kicks in much later and more slowly than it should should.

I think that’s needlessly offensive. Some human populations are different, no “better” or “worse” involved. To say that a gene is defective when, as has been pointed out, it provides a survival advantage in certain situations is just looking to insult people.

[Mathochist]

@Blake

So WTF were you talking about bacteria that digest lactose and don’t ferment it? You have just managed to comprehensively contradict yourself.

In one instance EM is saying that bacteria [either] digest or ferment.

Come on, I noticed this the first time you bitched. He never said “either”. He said “or”, which is by default inclusive. I’d read it, in context, as providing alternate terms to widen the audience that will comprehend, though admittedly at the cost of the audience with a chip on its shoulder looking for a fight.

And I still wanna see those cites for your position. EM cited peer-reviewed medical journals. Aren’t those non-commercial enough for you?

[Mathochist]

@Blake

Levri KM, Ketvertis K, Deramo M, Merenstein JH, D’Amico F; J Fam Pract. 2005 Jul;54(7):613-20.

Do probiotics reduce adult lactose intolerance? A systematic review.

CONCLUSIONS: Probiotic supplementation in general did not alleviate the symptoms and signs of lactose intolerance in adults in this review. Some evidence suggests that specific strains, concentrations, and preparations are effective. Further clinical trials of specific strains and concentrations are necessary to delineate this potential therapeutic relationship.

Bolding mine.

Try bolding like this

CONCLUSIONS: Probiotic supplementation in general did not alleviate the symptoms and signs of lactose intolerance in adults in this review. Some evidence suggests that specific strains, concentrations, and preparations are effective. Further clinical trials of specific strains and concentrations are necessary to delineate this potential therapeutic relationship.

At least your source can tell the difference between a particular method and a general class of methods.

[Guinastasia]

@Crafter_Man

Potatoes are another.

My wife is Chinese. When her parents came over to visit a couple of years ago, she cooked baked potatoes one evening. Her parents were stabbing the potatoes with their chopsticks and asking, “What is this? How do you eat it?”

Probably because potatos are native to North America (or at least the Western Hemisphere). I don’t know when Europe started eating them-after Columbus, but I don’t know when they became a staple crop (like they did in Ireland).

[Blake]

@xbuckeye

Memo to Blake, there is oxygen in water

Memo to xbuckeye, the oxygen in water is not available as an electron receptor.

Memo to Blake, oxygen is always available, the important determination is the amount of oxygen available.

Memo to xbuckeye, pedantic nitpicking of this type achieves nothing. There is a good reason why the highly respected microbiology text I quoted above refers to fermentation occurring outside the presence of electron receptors. I think that Messrs Brock and Madigan are well aware that microbes contain water, don’t you? If they see no need to clarify that oxygen is always available then why is it pertinent to this discussion? What does it add to our understanding of the process of fermentation?

Not necessarily. Carbon dioxide is highly soluble in the blood so excess CO2 in the gut is not a huge deal until you make it faster than the bloodstream can absorb it.

No, that isn’t really true. The gut absorbs food and water primarily by active absorption or assisted diffusion, both of which refer specific protein channels. No such channels exist for CO2. As a result, while CO2 is indeed soluble in the bloodstream it is not capable of travelling across the gut wall to any great extent.

Fermentation is not one pathway, but hundreds.

Yes, and nothing I said suggests other wise. Indeed by referring to multiple end products that should have been obvious. Granted I never said it specifically, but then it’s quite irrelevant.

Without oxygen as a terminal lectron acceptor, you can make acids and alcohols and a few other things

I just said precisely that. I suggest you read my posts before attempting to criticise them or me.

Particularly the bit where I said “Fermentation can result in the formation of organic acids, though it often doesn’t” and where I referred specifically to “the case of alcoholic fermentation”.

How does what you just posted in any way contradict or add to what I already posted?

I have posted “Fermentation can result in the formation of organic acids”, you then reply that no, no, “you can make acids” with fermentation. I have said that fermentation can be alcoholic, you reply that no, no “you can make … alcohols” with fermentation.

WTF? I feel like I’m part of a Vaudeville routine.

I suggest you read a basic text on bacterial metabolism and get back to us.

I suggest you read my posts, particularly the parts I just quoted above. Then I suggest that you tell me what parts were not later pararphrased by yourself.

And then you can tell us all what parts you see disagreeing with any a basic text on bacterial metabolism. That should be a laugh since they were all later paraphrased by yourself.

Xbuckeye all that you have done is restated what I have already clearly posted, added one nitpicking ‘clarification’ and one erroneous factoid.

@Mathochist

I think that’s needlessly offensive. Some human populations are different, no “better” or “worse” involved. To say that a gene is defective when, as has been pointed out, it provides a survival advantage in certain situations is just looking to insult people.

Huh?

The gene is defective. It is incapable of fulfilling the action it evolved to filled. It doesn’t work. No body ever used the term ‘better’ or ‘worse’ merely defective and mutant, which are non-prejudicial.

The gene for ascorbic acid production in humans is also defective. That the defect gives us a survival advantage is of no relevance to the gene being defective and incapable of producing ascorbic acid.

@Mathochist

Come on, I noticed this the first time you bitched. He never said “either”. He said “or”, which is by default inclusive.

Come on? Are you on crack? I quoted several times where he said “bacteria either digest or ferment”. Want me to do it again? It’s not hard.

@Exapno Mapcase

Different types of intestinal bacteria either digest or ferment lactose in the colon.

Now would you care to retract this piece of ignorance and stop bitching?

I’d read it, in context…

I’d suggest that you start by reading it… period. Since you claim that he never said “either” when he said precisely that it’s quite obvious that you have never read it in the first place.

And I still wanna see those cites for your position.

Huh? You really haven’t read this thread have you? How ,any do you want? I [re]quoted 2 in my last post? Wanna see them again? I’m more than happy to quote them multiple times.

CONCLUSIONS: Probiotic supplementation in general did not alleviate the symptoms and signs of lactose intolerance in adults in this review. Some evidence suggests that specific strains, concentrations, and preparations are effective. Further clinical trials of specific strains and concentrations are necessary to delineate this potential therapeutic relationship.
Discussion: *ngestion of Lactobacillus… failed to result in any significant overall improvement … does not appear to be effective.

EM cited peer-reviewed medical journals. Aren’t those non-commercial enough for you?

OK, now I know you haven’t read anything.

Can you please tell me where he cited a peer-reviewed medical journals? And could you name the reference and quote the bit that actually says that probiotics are effective for treating LI?

This is great dude. EM ran of because he couldn’t provide references, but now that you;ve made the same claim I can ask you to provide them.

So some on, just one peer-reviewed medical journals that actually says that probiotics are effective for treating LI. You reckon they are there, it should be a cinch to provide one.

Not an article that studied probiotics for LI but gives no conclusions. Not an article that studied probiotics for all uses and concludes that5 the work for some uses but not necessarily for LI. An article that says that probiotics work for LI.

At least your source can tell the difference between a particular method and a general class of methods.

Yes, and it says that there is at best a suggestion that specific strains, concentrations, and preparations are effective. It never says they are effective, it never says there is evidence they are effective. Merely a suggestion they might be.

Now can we please have these peer-reviewed medical journals cited by Em that says that probiotics are beneficial for LI? You claimed he provided them, now how about producing even one?

Dude, next time try reading what was actually posted before replying.

Quite obviously Mathochist you have failed to read or failed to comprehend this thread at all. That claim that EM never said either when he did is an absolutely stirling example. Your claim that I have no refrences that LI isn’t effective is even better when I can supply a direct quote that says that “ngestion of Lactobacillus… failed to result in any significant overall improvement … does not appear to be effective*
Tee hee

[Acsenray]

@Anaamika

[total hijack]Your grandpa was from Jullandher? So was mine! That makes us family. :)[/hijack]

All this goes to prove is that old adage that it is impossible to make an unqualified statement about India that is true. And for every true statement, the exact opposite is equally true.

[jim_marren_yahoo.com]

1. I suffer from moderate LI.
2. With reservations, I tried probiotics.
3. I still suffer from moderate LI.
4. There is a reason that they have to put a disclaimer on the packaging.

[Crandolph]

@China Guy

yak cheese can be incredibly good.

Just wanted to second that; had mine in Nepal. Also had some great water buffalo steak there… yum…

[AQuandary]

@Blake

The Romans had a long standing menu of dairy products including milk and cheeses. Honey or mead sweetened milk was a norm at many banquets but the common country people also indulged in milk whenever possible. In fact most Roman people would have consumed far more dairy products than meat in their lifetimes. The Romans even had a God of dairy cattle and dairy products

Yes, I recall there was a saying from that time that went something like “Blessed are the cheesemakers!”

[Acsenray]

There might not be cheese in Chinese food but there’s head cheese in zombie food.

[CalMeacham]

This thread was resurrected purely because of an out-of-left-field Monty Python reference?
Jeez – people will create zombies for anything these days.