Why is there no cheese in Chinese food?

[Blake]

@Exapno Mapcase

That’s only true if your body makes the lactase enzyme, i.e. if you are not lactose intolerant.

Yes, and as I and other shave noted several times we are only talking here about people who make the lactase enzyme, so it seems quite redundant

You are simply wrong. This has been well-known for decades and can be found in any standard work on LI. Here are a few online links to start with:

First link: Commercial site selling probiotics to deal with LI. makes claim of ‘strong evidence’ with no support at all. Approximately worthless as a reference.

Second link: Dairy Council of California. Peddling yoghurt based probiotics to deal with LI. Makes claims of some aid with no reference. Approximately worthless as a reference.

Third link. Commercial site selling probiotics to deal with LI. makes claim of evidence with no support at all. Approximately worthless as a reference.

If I am wrong these links certainly don’t show it. This is GQ Dude. I asked for reputable, non-commercial sites. You have provided links to three organisations that get paid to sell probiotics to deal with LI, and they themselves provide no evidence to support their claims.
Want to try again?

Mineralise? That’s gibberish, unless the word has an entirely different meaning in British usage.

Umm, mineralisation is the standard term used by microbiologists.

Before declaring something as gibberish might I suggest you do some basic research? Slightly simplified, when a complex organic molecule is reduced to inorganic form (eg methane, CO2) then it is refereed to as mineralisation. This distinguishes the process from metabolic usage or partial decomposition which results in altered organic compounds.

Try doing a Google search on “Microbe mineralise”

Different types of intestinal bacteria either digest or ferment lactose in the colon.

OK, it now appears that you have no actual knowledge of or training in microbiology, physiology or biochemistry. Referring to bacteria either digesting or fermenting is meaningless. Bacteria that ferment lactose are also (almost invariably) digesting it.

Digestion simply refers to the ability of bacteria to decompose foodstuffs into physically or chemically smaller units capable of being absorbed into the cell. In the case of lactose this usually means breaking the disaccharide into monosaccharides by the action of lactase. Fermentation is a process that occurs inside the cell to release usable energy.

As you can see it’s not possible for any bacterium to be fermenting lactose without first digesting it (caveat: there may be some odd stains that can absorb the disaccharide directly, but that would be rare).

So WTF are you talking about?

Probiotic Lactobacillus species are entirely different from the variety of bacteria that ferment lactose.

So if “Probiotic Lactobacillus species” are not fermenting lactose what, pray tell. Are they doing with it? Are you suggesting they are utilising aerobic digestion within the human gut?

They in fact produce lactase, the enzyme that digests lactose. These simpler sugars are then absorbed into the body without causing gas.

Ahh, you are suggetsing that they are digesting the disaccharide and then doing nothing with it.

Three questions:

1. Why precisely are these bacteria producing lactase, at great energetic and material expense, when they are not absorbing the resulting monosaccharides as food?

2. How can a bacterium producing lactase, at great energetic and material expense, when they avoid absorbing the resulting monosaccharides as food? Lactose is composed of glucose and galactose subunits. How can any lactobaccillus not absorb glucose and maltose? How is that even physiologically possible?

3. You’ve just said that “Lactobacillus species are entirely different from the variety of bacteria that ferment lactose” in that they “produce lactase”. Can you please name just one of these “variety of bacteria that ferment lactose” that don’t “produce lactase”?
   Exapno Mapcase can you in fact provide any reliable references for any of these claims? Do you have any qualifications or training whatsoever in microbiology, physiology or biochemistry? Because none of what you are saying makes any sense or gels with the known facts.

You claim hat bacteria that digest don’t ferment and vice versa, yet how is that even physiologically possible? You claim that your Lactobaccilli produce lactase but don’t ferment the resultant monosaccharides. How does that occur, and why?

Sorry, but none of this seems to be based on any sort of evidence or understanding of microbiology.

And can we please have a reference form a non-commercial source (ie some site that doesn’t make money form selling probiotics) to support your claim that probiotics help in LI?

[Walloon]

@Blake

Umm, mineralisation is the standard term used by microbiologists.

With that “umm”, you don’t sound very sure.

[Excalibre]

@Walloon

With that “umm”, you don’t sound very sure.

Umm, are you on crack?

That’s the sarcastic “umm” he was using. He sounds pretty sure. He also provides what sounds (to this layman) like a convincing explanation for why this latest nutritional fad might not be that useful.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

This is deeply discouraging. I had thought that after a long period of obscurity, lactose intolerance was becoming generally understood by the public. The one positive note is that Blake fails to give a cite of any kind on lactose intolerance, so his total lack of knowledge even of the basics may be personal rather than systemic.

@Blake

First link: Commercial site selling probiotics to deal with LI. makes claim of ‘strong evidence’ with no support at all. Approximately worthless as a reference.

Second link: Dairy Council of California. Peddling yoghurt based probiotics to deal with LI. Makes claims of some aid with no reference. Approximately worthless as a reference.

Third link. Commercial site selling probiotics to deal with LI. makes claim of evidence with no support at all. Approximately worthless as a reference.

A commercial site concerning probiotics would to most people be a site that sold a probiotic product. But nowhere in the first link is there any such product sold as part of the site. The article links as its source to a newspaper article from the Chicago Tribune syndicate - a major American newspaper - citing studies. Wait a minute. Could Blake possibly be referring to the “ads by Google” that do contain a link to a probiotic site? Is it possible that anyone today can not differentiate a linked ad from the actual contents of a site?

Link two. The Dairy Council of California. A non-commercial site, by definition. Nowhere on that page does it “peddle” any products. One cannot buy any products of any description from that site. A bizarre use of the word “commercial.”

Link three. A page containing a discussion of a commercial probiotic. It does not sell the product; it doesn’t even endorse that particular product. The SDMB is a site that contains discussions of products. Does that mean that it cannot be cited because it is a “commercial” site? How can anyone fail to distinguish a site selling a product from one examining its claims?

You have provided links to three organisations that get paid to sell probiotics to deal with LI,

No. I did not. Look at them again. Or for the first time.

Umm, mineralisation is the standard term used by microbiologists.

Before declaring something as gibberish might I suggest you do some basic research? Slightly simplified, when a complex organic molecule is reduced to inorganic form (eg methane, CO2) then it is refereed to as mineralisation. This distinguishes the process from metabolic usage or partial decomposition which results in altered organic compounds.

Try doing a Google search on “Microbe mineralise”

We again enter a world in which Blake has a different dictionary from the rest of us. The term is not in my medical dictionary and googling “microbe mineralize” under either British or American spelling gives me little additional information.

However, I will accept his definition. Even if accurate, it’s totally irrelevant to the discussion here, though.

OK, it now appears that you have no actual knowledge of or training in microbiology, physiology or biochemistry. Referring to bacteria either digesting or fermenting is meaningless. Bacteria that ferment lactose are also (almost invariably) digesting it.

Digestion simply refers to the ability of bacteria to decompose foodstuffs into physically or chemically smaller units capable of being absorbed into the cell. In the case of lactose this usually means breaking the disaccharide into monosaccharides by the action of lactase. Fermentation is a process that occurs inside the cell to release usable energy.

As you can see it’s not possible for any bacterium to be fermenting lactose without first digesting it (caveat: there may be some odd stains that can absorb the disaccharide directly, but that would be rare).

So WTF are you talking about?

Now we’re completely off the rails into the unknown.

That the bacteria in the colon digest (hydrolize) lactose by the production of lactase and then ferment the breakdown product of glucose is absolutely standard terminology in the U.S. I thought it was everywhere, even in the U.K.

cite: J Appl Bacteriol. 1991 Jun;70(6):443-59. “The control and consequences of bacterial fermentation in the human colon.” Cummings JH, Macfarlane GT.

cite: Am J Gastroenterol. 1989 Apr;84(4):375-8. “Intestinal gas production from bacterial fermentation of undigested carbohydrate in irritable bowel syndrome.” Haderstorfer B, Psycholgin D, Whitehead WE, Schuster MM.

cite: Nutr Rev. 1998 Jan;56(1 Pt 1):1-8. “Human adult-onset lactase decline: an update.” Lee MF, Krasinski SD.

Although commercially available “lactase” products alleviate symptoms in many lactose-intolerant people, a greater understanding of this variability in lactose tolerance could lead to interventions that reduce the rate of gastric emptying and/or increase the proliferation of lactose-metabolizing bacteria in the colon, leading to more efficient lactose utilization.

cite: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 73, No. 2, 421S-429s, February 2001 “Probiotics—compensation for lactase insufficiency” Michael de Vrese, Anna Stegelmann, Bernd Richter, Susanne Fenselau, Christiane Laue and Jürgen Schrezenmeir

It is generally accepted that fermented milk products such as yogurt can efficiently improve lactose digestion in lactose malabsorbers and therefore that they are well tolerated by most lactose-intolerant subjects.
snip
L. acidophilus species, particularly probiotic and nonprobiotic bifidobacteria, which produce enzymes that hydrolyze lactose and other glycosides were studied.

cite: J Bacteriol. 1936 May; 31(5): 453–464. “Dissociation and Lactase Activity in Slow Lactose-Fermenting Bacteria of Intestinal Origin” A. D. Hershey and J. Bronfenbrenner

I like that last one. Just to show that this is not exactly new-found knowledge.

If you want more, try scholar.google.com.

Exapno Mapcase can you in fact provide any reliable references for any of these claims?

Yes. Yes, I can.

Three questions:

1. Why precisely are these bacteria producing lactase, at great energetic and material expense, when they are not absorbing the resulting monosaccharides as food?

2. How can a bacterium producing lactase, at great energetic and material expense, when they avoid absorbing the resulting monosaccharides as food? Lactose is composed of glucose and galactose subunits. How can any lactobaccillus not absorb glucose and maltose? How is that even physiologically possible?

3. You’ve just said that “Lactobacillus species are entirely different from the variety of bacteria that ferment lactose” in that they “produce lactase”. Can you please name just one of these “variety of bacteria that ferment lactose” that don’t “produce lactase”?

I’ve already linked to the other thread in which I gave a description of the process, in which I said specifically that bacteria in the colon digest (metabolize) lactose and then ferment the glucose. I don’t know if you read that, but I refer others to it.

That description was my own interpretation of the discussion in “Metabolism of Lactose in the Human Body,” H. Arola & A. Tamm, Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology, 1994;29(suppl 202):21-5. [This Supplement, comprising six articles, is the best one-stop medical journal treatment of LI and is mostly accessible to the non-medical specialist.] If you want a table of differing species, fermenting and non-fermenting, you will find one on page 22.

I don’t think we’re just talking around terminology. I get no sense that you have any understanding of what takes place in the colon regarding undigested lactose. You certainly have not given a single cite of any kind to back up any of your statements. Academic studies of lactose intolerance are quite extensive, but have not greatly changed over the past few years. The medical community is certainly beginning to do formal studies of the role of probiotic pills in the treatment of symptoms of LI, but the knowledge that probiotics is useful has long been verified.

Excalibre, would you care to reconsider?

[xbuckeye]

I am not sure I will help, but first of all: Walloon might actually know more about cheese than I, but just because a cheese is processed doesn’t make it horrible, some is quite good and it can have a functionality that surpasses most natural cheeses. To make a truly delicious processed cheese, you first, have to know your natural cheeses. Bad natural cheese makes bad processed cheese. There is a great art to it, but that is for another thread, if’n y’all are interested.

Mostly, the lactose intolerance thing is based on bacteria. But, intestinal bacteria is based on your intestinal environment. Your intestinal environment is affected by your diet, which is affected by your ethnic group and external environment. Probiotics do work for immune reasons that have little or nothing to do with lactose. Live and active cultures are not probiotics, but have an effect on lactose intolerance. They can do this in several ways. First, the live and active cultures in dairy products consume lactose as the product moves through its shelf life. The older your yogurt or cheese is, the less lactose is in it. Eventually, you get no residual lactose and therefore no problem for the lactose intolerant. Even if you eat it before the lactose is consumed, you are still eating bacteria that contain enzymes that can break down a sugar that your body can’t into sugars that your body can. There is no way to independently study the role of the human body versus the role of bacteria since we are born with intestinal flora and die with intestinal flora and have intestinal flora the whole time in the middle. The more you feed lactose-loving bacteria lactose, the happier they will be to live in your gut forever and ever and ever.
I was taught that there is a difference between fermentation and complete digestion (mineralisation? I’ve never heard of it, but I’ll buy it) in that fermentation was mostly devoid of oxygen and results in organic acids where digestion utilises large amounts of oxygen to break down the carbon chains into carbon dioxide and water and such. You can probably guess that a gut full of gas is not comfortable. The key is to get the lactose broken down into glucose and galactose early in the digestive process so that your small intestines can allow it to adsorb into your bloodstream and get used by your tissues.

[Excalibre]

@Exapno Mapcase

Excalibre, would you care to reconsider?

I’m no more inclined that Blake apparently is to trust a state’s dairy council - just as people decry the USDA as excessively beholden to agribusiness interests, a dairy council (which is a private organization to promote an agricultural product, in every case I’m aware of, though sometimes with some government support) is tasked with inducing consumption of a particular product.

My understanding of the biology involved is pretty thoroughly at odds with what you’re describing. Lactase is produced by a particular portion of the small bowel (near the pyloric sphincter), and even despite cultural mixing, it’s very strongly linked not to culture but to genetic heritage (witness the frequency of lactose intolerance among black Americans, despite the fact that they mostly share their diet with whites.) As has already been discussed in this thread, South Indians are much less frequently lactose tolerant than North Indians, which is consistent with the prevailing theory that the Indo-Aryan culture that invaded the north of India was descended from the pastoral Indo-Europeans, leaving the non-Indo-European and non-pastoral Dravidian peoples in the south.

This lactose intolerance persists despite the fact that yogurt is pretty damn common in India. So putting too much emphasis on gut flora doesn’t seem consistent with the facts as we know them. And of course it’s far from the norm for any adult mammal to retain lactose tolerance - it’s the result of evolutionary pressure and our own extraordinary ability to find food in our environment that a minority of modern humans have developed lactose tolerance at all. These things all seem very much contrary to the suggestion that it’s a matter of our diet that most adult humans can’t consume milk.

Incidentally, I went to the library because of this thread - to those who recommended Good to Eat, thanks! I’m very much enjoying it so far.

[Blake]

Exapno Mapcase you are making no sense whatsoever, and you still haven’t provided any references to support your claims. Nor have you explained how they could conceivably be true.

That the bacteria in the colon digest (hydrolize) lactose by the production of lactase and then ferment the breakdown product of glucose is absolutely standard terminology in the U.S.

Yes, it is standard terminology, that’s why I used it above. That was my point. Colon bacteria must digest lactose in order to ferment it.

So WTF were you talking about bacteria that digest lactose and don’t ferment it? You have just managed to comprehensively contradict yourself.

It’s game for everyone. Read the two following quotes by EM.

Different types of intestinal bacteria either digest or ferment lactose in the colon.

Probiotic Lactobacillus species are entirely different from the variety of bacteria that ferment lactose. They… produce lactase

And then:

bacteria in the colon digest… lactose by the production of lactase and then ferment the breakdown product…

In one instance EM is saying that bacteria [either] digest or ferment. He then goes on to stress the point that his magic Lactobaccilli are entirely different from fermenting bacteria because they produce lactase and the fermenting bacteria don’t.

Now he is saying that it’s common knowledge that all bacteria that produce lactase are fermenting the resulting digestate.

EM WTF is your point. Just come out and say it clearly, please.

The trouble with this probiotics scam is that it makes no sense. If bacteria in the gut are causing gas build up for lactose sensitives it’s because they are fermenting lactose by producing lactase. You have yourself said that it is common knowledge that the only way they can be fermenting lactose is if they are producing lactase. They are doing exactly what the probiotic bacteria are supposedly going to do

Contrary to your earlier claims that fermenting bacteria don’t produce lactase and that your magic Lactobaccilli don’t ferment you have now done a complete 180 and admitted that it is common knowledge that both produce lactase and both ferment the digestate.

So WTF is probiotic innoculate supposedly achieving?

As for the rest of that post…

We again enter a world in which Blake has a different dictionary from the rest of us. The term is not in my medical dictionary and googling “microbe mineralize” under either British or American spelling gives me little additional information.

Firstly it wasn’t meant to give you information. It was meant to eliminate your ignorance of the common usage of the word in discussions of microbiology. If you want more information then any undergrad micro text will do that for you.

I’m not sure what dictionary you are using. I’m using this really obscure and disreputable piece o’ junk called the “Oxford English Dictionary”! Ever heard of it? Quite a few other Dopers also use it, so it’s probably a bit premature for you to be talking about me using a dictionary that’s different from that used by “the rest of us”.
And my crummy, unusual OED states:
a. trans. To convert (esp. organic matter) wholly or partly into a mineral or inorganic substance.
b. b. intr. To become mineralized; to change into a mineral or inorganic substance. Also fig.

Now EM could you please provide a reference for your claims that “bacteria either digest or ferment lactose” depending on type? Your own reference says that digestion inevitably preceeds fermentation in the same species.

Could you please provide a reference that bacteria either digest or ferment lactose?

Can you please explain how your magic probiotic Lactobaccilli can manage to decompose lactose into galactose and glucose and be able to avoid fermenting the glucose so produced?

And can we please have a reference from a non-commercial source (ie some site that doesn’t make money form selling probiotics) to support your claim that probiotics help in LI? So far you have produced not one.
EM your best reference (de Vrese et al) says that it is generally accepted that lactose digestion form yoghurt products is higher. Well we know it’s generally accepted. It’s generally accepted that God created the world in 6 days too. The same quote says that they studied probiotic bacteria. But I’m sure that I;m not the only one who thinks it odd that you have not quoted the results of de Vrese’s study into the effect of probiotic bacteria on LI. After all it is the results we want, not the fact that a study was conducted. So come on XM, what did the results say?
All the rest of the supposed references, not one them says that probiotics have any effect at all on LI. Not one. That’s pretty telling.

The simply say that bacteria digest lactose via lactase and then ferment the resulting monosacchrides. We already knew that. I was the one who introduced that fact to the discussion. EM has in fact said that some bacteria digest lactose and don’t ferment it. The reference he has produced not only don’t support his claims, they actually contradict them.

So come on EM. This is GQ.

Can we have some evidence that says that bacteria either digest or ferment lactose depending on strain?

Can you please explain how your probiotic Lactobaccilli can manage to decompose lactose into galactose and glucose and be able to avoid fermenting the glucose so produced?

And can we please have a reference from a non-commercial source (ie some site that doesn’t make money form selling probiotics) to support your claim that probiotics help in LI? So far you have produced not one.

[Walloon]

xbuckeye, actually all three types of American cheese that I listed above, from good to bad, are processed. By definition, American cheese is always processed cheese. And you’re right, the quality of the results depend on the cheese you start with. American cheese is not intended to be eaten by itself, but to be used in cooking. The processing gives it a uniform texture and a low melting point, and it doesn’t separate out into oil and solids when melted.

Excalibre, calm down.

[Walloon]

From A randomized trial of Lactobacillus acidophilus BG2FO4 to treat lactose intolerance in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

Background: Lactose intolerance is the most common disorder of intestinal carbohydrate digestion. Lactobacillus acidophilus BG2FO4 is a strain of lactobacilli with properties of marked intestinal adherence and high ß-galactosidase activity.

Objective: This study was designed to determine whether oral feeding of Lactobacillus acidophilus BG2FO4 leads to a lactose-tolerant state. . . .

Discussion: *ngestion of Lactobacillus acidophilus BG2FO4 for 7 d in subjects with lactose maldigestion with and without hypochlorhydria failed to result in any significant overall improvement in hydrogen production after lactose ingestion. The strategy of changing the enteric flora in the upper gastrointestinal tract to change an upper intestinal condition such as lactase deficiency does not appear to be effective.

[Blake]

This is what an actual supporting reference looks like. It states the source, the conclusions and it plainly and simply endorses the position. Moreover it was the first result returned via PubMed so it wasn’t exactly hard to find.

Levri KM, Ketvertis K, Deramo M, Merenstein JH, D’Amico F; J Fam Pract. 2005 Jul;54(7):613-20.

Do probiotics reduce adult lactose intolerance? A systematic review.

CONCLUSIONS: Probiotic supplementation in general did not alleviate the symptoms and signs of lactose intolerance in adults in this review. Some evidence suggests that specific strains, concentrations, and preparations are effective. Further clinical trials of specific strains and concentrations are necessary to delineate this potential therapeutic relationship.

Bolding mine.

[baronsabato]

@ouryL

I’m surprised no one asked why bread is rare among Asians too?

Steamed breads, made without eggs, is pretty common in Chinese cuisine. Mantou is a bread roll you may recognize from dim sum or Peking duck dinners.

I’ve heard the reason why baked breads aren’t as common is because ovens have never been a staple of Chinese homes (not cost-efficient or something to that effect).

[xbuckeye]

@baronsabato

I’ve heard the reason why baked breads aren’t as common is because ovens have never been a staple of Chinese homes (not cost-efficient or something to that effect).

Actually, this is common to any culture. Until the industrial era, baking was a long, arduous process, usually using a heavy, dense vessel in a fire. Almost all cooking was done over a fire and roasting and boiling were the most common cooking techniques. If you are up for a challenge, make a cornbread over a fire in a dutch oven and then contemplate how frequently you would actually want to do that.

Aside to Wallon, I tend to used ‘processed’ in the general to describe all three categories you so accurately described, sorry, my bad

[Walloon]

But you are correct, xbuckeye. All three categories of American cheese (American cheese , American cheese food :(, and American Cheese product :mad: ) are processed.

[Blake]

@xbuckeye

I was taught that there is a difference between fermentation and complete digestion (mineralisation? I’ve never heard of it, but I’ll buy it) in that fermentation was mostly devoid of oxygen and results in organic acids where digestion utilises large amounts of oxygen to break down the carbon chains into carbon dioxide and water and such. You can probably guess that a gut full of gas is not comfortable. The key is to get the lactose broken down into glucose and galactose early in the digestive process so that your small intestines can allow it to adsorb into your bloodstream and get used by your tissues.

There is a difference between fermentation and digestion, but it’s not that.

Digestion is simply the breakdown of food into chemically and physically smaller particles that can be taken into the living cell. It’s that simple. It doesn’t require any oxygen or anything at all much beyond water, enzymes and substrate. It’s not really correlated in any way to fermentation, and all fermenters need to engage in digestion unless fed on very simple diets.

Fermentation is (to quote) “Internally balanced oxidation-reduction reactions of organic compounds with the release of energy occurring in the absence of externally supplied electron acceptors”.

Or to put it more simply, fermentation is just the burning of food for energy when there is no oxygen available.

Fermentation can result in the formation of organic acids, though it often doesn’t. But most importantly fermentation inevitably results in the formation of gases. In the case of alcoholic fermentation that gas is CO2, exactly the same gas as produced aerobic digestion. But fermentation can just as easily produce methane and a range of other gases. So the fact that fermentation is occurring isn’t any sort of protection against “a gut full of gas”. In fact quite the opposite, Because the gut lacks oxygen any fermentation will inevitably resulting a gut full of gas.

That’s true whether the fermentor is a magic Lactobacillus or E. coli.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

I’m not going to reply to Blake’s citeless incoherent rants other than to a) suggest he read the copious medical literature on the subject and b) say that in all my posts I have merely been making the commonsense layman’s language distinction between bacteria that merely digest lactose and those that go on to ferment its byproducts and product fatty acids and gases.

Dueling cites can continue all night. I haven’t had a chance to read The Journal of Family Practice – and I’m positive Blake hasn’t – although I believe they run fairly simplified review articles rather than true metastudies.

One such, availble in full text, is Applied and Environmental Microbiology, September 1999, p. 3763-3766, Vol. 65, No. 9. “The Scientific Basis for Probiotic Strains of Lactobacillus” Gregor Reid

A review of the literature shows that there are hundreds of papers which report, in some shape or form, the use of various Lactobacillus strains as probiotic agents. The purpose of this review is to select and examine strains which have been tested thoroughly in vitro and in vivo, have substantial published data behind them, and have been shown to have real potential to maintain intestinal or urogenital health as well as reduce the risk of infection. It is my belief that such rigorous documentation should be required before wider human usage is considered.

snip

While many Lactobacillus strains have been promoted as good probiotics for human usage, there are relatively few with substantial supporting in vitro and human data. Biotherapeutic properties and mechanisms of action are too often lacking, and arguably too many human studies are undertaken or contemplated with strains which have not been thoroughly characterized with respect to the intended site of insertion. There are a few notable exceptions, including those described in this review, which have been well studied, and the findings have been documented in peer-reviewed journals.

Another: Journal of Nutrition. 2000; “The Role of Probiotic Cultures in the Control of Gastrointestinal Health” Rial D. Rolfe

The use of probiotics to enhance intestinal health has been proposed for many years. Probiotics are traditionally defined as viable microorganisms that have a beneficial effect in the prevention and treatment of specific pathologic conditions when they are ingested. There is a relatively large volume of literature that supports the use of probiotics to prevent or treat intestinal disorders. However, the scientific basis of probiotic use has been firmly established only recently, and sound clinical studies have begun to be published. Currently, the best-studied probiotics are the lactic acid bacteria, particularly Lactobacillus sp. and Bifidobacterium sp.

And a nice summary of the positive role these bacteria play specifically in lactose intolerance: J. Dairy Sci. 84:319–331 “Invited Review: The Scientific Basis of Lactobacillus acidophilus
NCFM Functionality as a Probiotic” M. E. Sanders* and T. R. Klaenhammer.

As a general rule, no one study, review or metastudy is the final answer to any problem in science. I’m perfectly happy that the subject is being actively studied.

[Blake]

PMSL

@Exapno Mapcase

I’m not going to reply to Blake’s citeless incoherent rants

1. Translation: I am unable to respond because I lack the most basic knowledge of physiology and biochem to even understand this scam I have bought into.

2. I have given 3 cites so far. How can you call them citeless?

suggest he read the copious medical literature on the subject

It is so copius that EM can’t actually produce even one article, even though we have asked numerous times.

in all my posts I have merely been making the commonsense layman’s language distinction between bacteria that merely digest lactose and those that go on to ferment its by products and product fatty acids and gases.

But no such distinction exists. It can’t exist. It’s not possible.

I have asked you to specifically name just one of these bacteria that merely digest lactose and don’t then go on to ferment its byproducts and product fatty acids and gases. If such bacteria exist then you should be able to name one shouldn’t you?

The fact that you can’t proves that no such creature exists

Meanwhile the fact is that it makes no sense at all that such a creature could or would exist. How can a prokaryote digest a disaccharide but not ferment the resulting monosachharides? Jeez, anyone with even a basic understanding of physiology or microbiology could see how ridiculous that is.

Come on EM, it’s a simple question, it’s ben asked 3 times. How about an answer? This is GQ after all?

Dueling cites can continue all night.

Duelling? So far you haven’t produced one reference that I have requested. Not one.
Now let’s look at Em’s latest cites shall to see what they say shall we?

Reid. A broad review of all probiotics for all therapeutic uses Admits that little evidence exists for anyof them. NEVER EVEN USES THE FRICKEN WORD LACTOSE.

This reference does not in any way support what EM claims.

Rolfe. A broad review of all probiotics for all intestinal uses Admits that little evidence exists for any of them. NEVER EVEN USES THE FRICKEN WORD LACTOSE.

This reference does not in any way support what EM claims.

Come on EM, can we please have just one reference that actually supports what you claim? So far your own references are all either irrelevant or actually contradicting you.

And can you please answer my simple questions? This is GQ you know. Simply saying that my posts are incoherent doesn’t make a factual answer.

Can we have some evidence that says that bacteria either digest or ferment lactose depending on strain?

Can you please name just one of these bacteria that merely digest lactose and don’t then go on to ferment its byproducts and product fatty acids and gases. If such bacteria exist then you should be able to name one shouldn’t you?
Can you please explain how your probiotic Lactobaccilli can manage to decompose lactose into galactose and glucose and be able to avoid fermenting the glucose so produced?

And can we please have a reference from a non-commercial source (ie some site that doesn’t make money form selling probiotics) to support your claim that probiotics help *in LI? So far you have produced not one.
These are simple questions. They are perfect GQ fodder. So why can’t you answer them?

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Blake

And can we please have a reference from a non-commercial source (ie some site that doesn’t make money form selling probiotics) to support your claim that probiotics help *in LI? So far you have produced not one.

I showed that the underlined claim was a flat out lie, as everyone who cares to click on those links can see for themselves. This repetition goes beyond cluelessness into actual malice or complete insanity.

There’s no need to respond to anything else you say. The literature is there and I’ve made it available in fully readable links, unlike you, who did not even take the time to read the full article that laid out the physiology of lactose intolerance.

I’m done here.

[Blake]

EM it’s a simple request. If you had a non-commercial reference that said that probiotics are beneficial for LI you’d quote it. We have quoted several that say they have no benefit.

If you could knew of any bacteria that could digest lactose but not ferment it you would name it.

We’ve called bullshit and you have been unable to respond.

You are indeed done here.

[Blake]

And for those who may have missed it in all EMs bluster and irrelevant cites, here are the only two references so far produced that actually state the results of trials into the effectiveness of probiotics on LI.

CONCLUSIONS: Probiotic supplementation in general did not alleviate the symptoms and signs of lactose intolerance in adults in this review. Some evidence suggests that specific strains, concentrations, and preparations are effective. Further clinical trials of specific strains and concentrations are necessary to delineate this potential therapeutic relationship.
Discussion: *ngestion of Lactobacillus… failed to result in any significant overall improvement … does not appear to be effective.
Note how easily one can obtain direct quotes that say outright that probiotics don’t work. Now why is EM unable to produce even one that says that they do work?

But this is GQ, not GD, so the case is closed. The only scientific references produced both agree: probiotics don’t work for LI.

[Crafter_Man]

Potatoes are another.

My wife is Chinese. When her parents came over to visit a couple of years ago, she cooked baked potatoes one evening. Her parents were stabbing the potatoes with their chopsticks and asking, “What is this? How do you eat it?”