Their acceptance of not being able to start their own business doesn’t make it true. Most people can start their own business, it’s just a lot of hard work and risk. But the ones that make it add greatly to the community through economic growth and job creation.
That is one of the reasons I am bothered by the “kill the fat cats” people - people who do that work and grow the economy should be congratulated, not punished.
Er, that shouldn’t be possible. Are there not marginal rates in your state?
It is perhaps also worth noting that the tax code as a whole is not nearly as progressive as one thinks from looking at the federal income tax. For one thing, even with the income tax, there is a lower tax rate on income from dividends and capital gains, which the wealthy tend to have more of. Then, moving on to the payroll taxes, they apply only to earned income, not the unearned income that the wealthy tend to have more of…and the part that goes to social security (which is most of it) only applies up to a certain salary limit, which I believe is somewhere around $100K. Furthermore, state and local taxes tend to be regressive both because the income tax part is often not as progressive as the federal and because there is a larger reliance on sale taxes, which tend to hit harder on the poor than the rich because the poor spend a larger percentage of their income and they spend it mainly on goods rather than services (the latter of which are often untaxed).
For all these reasons, studies of the overall progressivity of the tax code (i.e., the percentage of income paid to taxes as a function of income) have generally found it to be only mildly progressive.
If the system were simply a neutral and even one, some of these arguments would have merit. But,it has built tilted by the rich and powerful to their advantage. Tax avoidance is easy for the rich. The poor pay theirs. Tax cuts were pushed which greatly benefited the wealthy. The corporations and wealthy pressure to have laws changed to help themselves. The poor have no political sway. They do not make laws. They receive them. It is not an equitable system. It would be foolish to expect it to be. When the pendulum sways too far ,a few pols with a consciences help to kind of level it out for awhile.
I think that class warfare and endless harping on “the rich” teaches children that being rich is somehow magical and devalues the hard work and sacrifice that goes into it. Without being taught those values, much self-destruction can occur because they never have anything to be proud of.
Not a popular opinion around here, but no, I think government should turn that back over to private charities, beyond a very basic food and shelter program.
Government does not have to compete, so the services they provide are never efficient and good money get pissed away.
Then there’s that whole “theft” thing…
“Class warfare”? Where are you seeing “class warfare”? Not in this thread, surely.
Or is that just a grossly hyperbolic way of characterizing mild opinions about the undesirability or disadvantages of extreme disparities in wealth?
You seem to be going to the other extreme, advocating a starry-eyed adulation of wealth as automatically reflecting “hard work and sacrifice”. Look, hard work and sacrifice are certainly admirable, but they aren’t any more admirable in rich people than in poor people. The amount of wealth you have does not necessarily correlate to how hard-working or sacrificing you are.
Letting people keep more of their own money is not “redistribution” as I see it. The tax refund is not a handout. You’re just gettinng back money you earned that was withheld.
It really looks different if you have to fork over the money at the end of the year, instead of having it withheld throughout the year.
sure it is, our taxes pay for all kinds of things in other states and parts of the country that we have no business with. Ideally we all end up with a fair share but recent events have highlighted the massive amounts of federal tax dollars being spent in Alaska being one example.
I dont have an objection to people being wealthier than god himself but I do have to question a lot of the things that go on in corporate America. I caught a documentary on the Wal-mart family and corporation. its scary how anyone with that much money can treat their employees and customers and the communities they operate in so badly, they could each put 2% of their wealth back into the company it would make a massive difference but they just keep on hording their money. I am not saying its not their right but damn how do you run a business like that?
Don’t ask me, I’m their daughter, not their accountant (and thanks to said accountant, I’ve never even done my own income tax forms, so I’m rather ignorant on how things work). But they live in Nova Scotia, if that helps any.
Because so very many of them ARE.
Of course. What, do you expect luck to care about fairness ?
And setting up a situation where more and more wealth gets concentrated in the hands of people who simply inherited isn’t fair AT ALL. It makes society as a whole unfair. And isn’t good for the country to boot.
And so does everyone else having little or no money to buy whatever that company makes. And so does some scientist or engineer deciding to go into an easier line of work because HE won’t benefit from his work; the rich guys who own the company will take all the profit, even if it’s billions.
It’s amusing that our present “capitalist” system depends so heavily on so many people NOT being good capitalists and demanding more compensation for what they produce.
And yes, the 5% is the problem - they HAVE most of the wealth ( and IIRC, the top 1% have about a third ); what’s left is divided among the other 95%. Any fair tax system is going to hit them harder for that reason alone, if no other. In America, the wealth is hugely concentrated at the top.
No; mostly they make money of of other people’s hard work. They just bring a bag of money.
And no, I don’t think that good decision making has much to do with it. Most new companies fail; most new products fail. It’s luck, more than skill.
I agree. Fairness, ultimately is largely besides the point.
Not really. In the real modern America, instead of the mythical Land of Opportunity version, you are almost certain to stay in whatever income bracket you are born into, at best. America is degenerating into a caste society.
The basic rule is that class warfare is OK, as long as it’s from the top down. Even politely questioning their right to relentlessly parasitize the rest of us is horrible and evil though.
Okay, now there’s class warfare.
There’s always been class warfare. It’s just that we refuse to acknowledge it as such when it benefits the wealthy.
Look, if you’re just going to run out the argument that life isn’t fair, then why complain about heavily progressive taxes in the first place? The government could be taking 90% of your income over 200k and it’d still be the same argument.
The fact is that life for the grand majority of Americans is not based completely on a bunch of abstract numbers. Real people need to buy real services and goods with those numbers, and some people control an absurd amount of those numbers. Either by government or by depending on them for employment/charity, those with the most are depended upon by the least wealthy in our system. Like Spidey says, with great power comes great responsibility, and money is power.
Are you rich under our system? It doesn’t matter if you asked for it or not. You have a responsibility toward your fellow man. Is that fair? No, but neither is asking them to not complain while you roll around in your limited edition Rolls Royce while they fast another day to feed their kids. Boohoo poor rich man, life isn’t fair for you now is it?
Life isn’t fair, so let’s put at least one part of that unfair burden on those who can bear it. Skyscrapers aren’t built out of wood for a reason. Some building materials are better load bearers than others.
I’ve worked around some private charities. Efficiency is not their strong suit. But I see the real danger in the temptation for for-profit outfits to try & “fill a need” by promising services they can’t provide. Private health insurance, when provided by competing for-profit companies, is not really cheaper or more efficient than well-managed socialized medicine. There are efficiencies to monopoly, too. So… eh.
I would call taxes extortion rather than theft. Maybe “robbery” by some definitions. But the government has the authority to kill (in war), to detain (in prison), & other things. The rules really are different for the state than for the rest of us, & with good reason.
Well, I lived in B.C. and Quebec, so am familiar with the Canadian tax system…and it is no different from the American one in terms of how marginal tax rates work. Of course, the problem with not doing your own taxes is that you can have mistaken beliefs of how the system works without ever putting them to the test.
Access to developing market skills differs on both economic and racial lines. Not so much by gender these days.
Remuneration for skills differs on racial and gender lines. Not so much by birth economic class these days.
Million dollar severance package for not only failing at your job, but screwing the entire company, industry, and the international economy … that’s the kind of wealth that needs spreading around.
I want the wealth spread, as a well educated and highly skilled investor.
It’s pretty obvious that private organizations & individuals are better at some things; government at others. Really; the people who insist that private effort is always better are just as irrational as the Communists insisting on the government owning and controlling everything. Or to put it another way, there’s no such thing as a universal tool, one that’s always the best for every situation. Declaring government or private industry or whatever to be always the right choice in all circumstances is like having an ideological commitment to always using a wrench, and never a saw or especially one of those evil, evil screwdrivers.
I would call it paying what you owe. Just by living and doing business in a country with a functioning government, people benefit immensely; the people who call taxes “theft” are simply wannabe parasites at best. They want the benefits, but want other people to pay for it. Or worse, they are too blind or sociopathic to see or care what would actually happen if they made taxes voluntary - a failed state and the ruin of society.
*I *would call it patriotic.