And the reason for that divide is that liberals are supposed to accept any and all insults as to their character, their motives, and their actions, no matter how dishonest, but criticize a conservative, and they have every excuse to go scorched earth on us.
If grossly negative sentiments towards a political opponent were a major factor, then you should really note that liberals have been insulted for far longer than conservatives have.
It seems that all those looking to be persecuted took up that side, and take any criticism, no matter how valid, as proof of their persecution.
That’s not in debate. The question is whether criticizing conservatives for their actions justifies their scorched earth reaction to it.
But, when you see that Trump supporters actually are trying to end democracy and install a fascist dictator, that should point out that, while it is true that they don’t like to be criticized for their actions, that’s not an excuse, that’s the problem.
Certainly not fascists.
Liberals have been called worse, for far longer, and yet we are the ones who are expected to compromise, to be understanding and forgiving.
Do you really believe that a significant majority of the 47% of the US 2020 voting public, over 74 million Americans, who voted for Trump did so over “white grievance”?
This is a genuine question to you and anyone else who chooses to respond. I won’t reply to your answers, and will accept them as face value. I’m just curious as to the nature of your position.
Somewhere between half and two-thirds, would be my estimation.
The rest out of the habit of a low information voter that pays no attention to politics or news, but shows up once every 4 years to put a check next to the guy with an R next to his name.
I honestly have never figured out why anyone other than the most stupid or the most evil would support someone like Trump. My mother-in-law is the only person I know who voted for Trump. She’s not evil, and not otherwise stupid. However, she honestly fears that the Democrats would open the Southern border, tax away all her savings left to her by her late husband, and all the other crap advanced on Fox News. That’s why Obama said something like, “If I watched Fox News I wouldn’t vote for me either.” The right wing has convinced a sizable portion of the American electorate that the Democrats and Biden are something very scary. And, yes, a lot of the “scary” stuff is tied up with racial issues.
Yes I do. Not all of them are neo-Nazis or white revanchists, but I do believe a majority of them hold positions that, on deeper analysis, are rooted in white people thinking that minority concerns are overblown and gaining an undue amount of influence.
Many of them rally around anodyne positions like like “taxes are too high” and “government is too big” and “immigration is broken”. But I find it takes little effort to coax them into stating the racial grievances underlying those positions.
And they did so because Biden would sell us out to the communist Chinese, because he would make suburbs illegal, because he would remove the police, because he would tax us into oblivion… I could actually see if I can dig up the last email from my mother and list all the grievances that she had, but that’s on my computer at home, maybe I’ll post it later this evening.
They live in an alternate reality, and if that reality were true, then they would be right in their decisions. However, that reality is not true, and they are harming not only us, but themselves, by continuing to promulgate it.
Today, I am coming around to believing that yes, the political divide is once again mostly about race. See that confederate flag being paraded through the capitol building? It wasn’t necessarily a southerner who was parading it, but all the earmarks of the Lost Cause were there:
Overt hatred of all minorities but particularly black people.
Delusional, self-congratulatory yet at the same time whiny belief in their own victimization.
Rewriting history to make their fight to trample other humans a noble cause.
The Union is a false one. Much of the country doesn’t believe in it. When they say “us” they only mean people who look, talk, and believe exactly the way they do. Everyone else is evil, and should be destroyed by any means possible.
The whole liberal, humanist body of ideals? THAT is what they hate.
I recall from a few weeks ago that describing far-left liberal ideals as “leftist” was unpopular with several posters on this message board. And this was in a forum meant for debate and where the exchange of viewpoints is often verbally robust. Extrapolate from there towards an ordinary Trump supporter being told he’s a fascist. Don’t you think that message might be at least equally unpopular?
Again, false equivalence. “The far left” do not exist as a majority voting bloc in the Democratic party. By European/Canadian standards, the Democrats are a center-right group. So describing any but a few Democrats as “far left” is false. On the other hand, the Republicans are to the far right of pretty much any European/Canadian party with any influence.
“Fascist” is a much more powerful slur than “leftist.” I actually don’t think “fascist” is the most popular epitaph for Trump supporters. More often I see “racist,” “xenophobe,” or “deplorable.” You also could apply “stupid,” “dangerous,” “gullible” and “disillusion.” Lately, I’m preferring “anti-American.”
I agree with what you’re saying. You are more of a wordsmith than I, and put the point across like I wish I could. In return, opposing posts insult and call conservatives names, illustrating the point. They don’t get it, and that’s what I’m worried about. I accept legitimate arguments opposed to my own; I quit listening when I hear words like racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, or Islamophobic, pathological liar, and basket of deplorables. Name calling doesn’t make me believe; rational, logical argument may.
The problem with this is that liberals who don’t like being called socialists don’t go on to become socialists. Anyone who takes on a belief they don’t espouse because they’re tired of being called names is entirely responsible for their actions.
Hey, if your goal is to fail to understand the beliefs and motives of the opposition, and just assume that everyone will recognise the inherent brilliance of your position, regardless whether you tell the opposition that they’re deplorable, then go for it. That worked for Hilary Clinton in 2016, amirite?
You consider Romney and a few others to be the real conservatives? The rest of the Congress more or less supported him throughout his term. That’s a lot of supporters.
They support him because they’re courting (or afraid of) his voters. They may be “conservatives,” but that is not why they support Trump, who isn’t.
Oh, and fear.
And then one of the saddest things is I had colleagues who, when it came time to recognize reality and vote to certify Arizona and Pennsylvania in the Electoral College, they knew in their heart of hearts that they should’ve voted to certify, but some had legitimate concerns about the safety of their families. They felt that that vote would put their families in danger.
There’s those words again, “stupid” and “evil” to describe Trump supporters. How would you feel if I called you stupid and evil for supporting Biden? Does it make you stiffen your resolve to make Trump supporters pay for their insults? Petty and shallow, that’s what I call it.
Do you realise that it’s really difficult to try to understand the point you’re trying to make when your response is a sentence-by-sentence rebuttal? I get that you disagree with me, and that you have an opinion on each sentence that I’ve written, but the lack of cohesiveness between the sentence-by-sentence responses is confusing. You’re basically assessing each sentence that I’ve written, rather than making a coherent counter-argument. If that’s how you want to reply to my posts, then that’s your business. But if you notice that I’m not replying to you in the future, it’s not because I’ve accepted your argument; it’s because you don’t express it using paragraphs.
I said they are similar. I didn’t say they are the same. As my husband pointed out (he’s a historian) Fascism is a movement primarily bound to 20th century Europe. Where a lot of people weren’t at all convinced that democracy was a good idea. We Europeans have always lagged behind you in that sense, as he also keeps pointing out. When it comes to track records regarding authoritarian leaders, be it monarchs or Fuhrers or comrades, we are truly appalling. The Dutch have been less a part of this great history, but we did have the fewest remaining Jews after the war ended. We did not do as much as we’d like to believe to stop the evil from happening. And with us that’s an ongoing process as well.
There’s a reason i used the word Fascist. They were a far greater force than the Germans, they ruled in Italy for twenty years, in Spain for forty. Greece. Portugal. All before or after the war.
They also ruled in Argentina and Chile. It’s rightwing authoritarianism coupled with religious fanaticism. Hitler was in a way an exception because he was’t particularly Christian. A lot of Nazi symbolism is prechristian. However the results are comparable. And they’re not pretty. The same goes for communism for that matter. I regard them both, Fascism and communism, as facets of the same Beast, the rule of the mob over the decent people. Where the decent people are either too frightened or too callous or too stupid or too powerless or all of the above to do decent things. And I’m worried. And probably preoccupied. But if you slide, who’s going to stop us from sliding with you?
I don’t know what to call the attractiveness of Trump. But I’ve seen it before. In our history. And now. Mussolini. Hitler. Franco. Stalin. Putin. Trump. I can only hope I’m wrong.