I didn’t see it that way. There’s nothing earnest about it. It’s “I know I’m not supposed to do x, so how can I convince myself that I can do it anyway.” It’s intellectual dishonesty, not earnestness. And it doesn’t even seem logical even given their own rules, not in that article at least. The arguments were spurious.
I expected to enjoy the article because, yes, there would be a certain beauty in doing your best to uphold certain rules out of a promise or something like that. That expectation is why I chose to read the whole thing. But reading the article, I got the distinct impression that it wasn’t what they were doing.
It seems to me that it’s an effort to keep the exact letter of the law without keeping the spirit. The laws are supposed to inconvenience you. Finding some technicality in order to be less inconvenienced by them goes against their intent.
Well, yeah, it’s obvious they are trying to be slick and find a loop hole. But to even go to the effort of that is a nod to the authority of the law, like monstro said.
In otherwords, for an Orthodox Jew, there is no reason to keep a law when one is in private. One can easily just open the damn letter and no one will be the wiser. You aren’t going to be punished with hell and brimstone the way some christians believe. You can just toss the whole thing off when no one is watching. That fact that you take the trouble to even utilize a loop hole is in fact a sign of your respect for the agreement. You are finding technicalities, sure, but technically, you are keeping your word, and you give enough of a fuck to do it. I think that is kind of cool.
What I’m saying is, perhaps they are picturing god saying, “Ah, Jacob, you clever scamp. I see what you are doing there”. Haha. They don’t think god put the law there to see to it that they follow it in full spirit of the law. They pretty much saying, he put it there to make sure you acknowledge he has authority, and you do acknowledge that when you take the time to find a way to obey, albeit on a technicality.
I was surprised to learn that when he was a boy, Bill Clinton worked as a Shabbos Goy for a Jewish family. I respect President Clinton, but learning about this sort of “rules lawyering” early on might have had an impact on him.
One of the biggest electronics retailers is B & H Photo in New York. If you plan to order anything, you have to do it before sundown Friday. Even at the Consumer Electronics Show they shut down their booth Friday afternoon and keep it closed all day Saturday. I don’t understand it, but I find this level of commitment admirable.
I mean, it’s still cuckoo for cocoa puffs, IMHO. But it is a lot better than sitting in a cold dark room and pretending that sitting in coldness and darkness equals spiritual righteousness. That’s just plain dumb. Finding a way to avoid this while still keeping the letter of the law is using the brain that the gods gave you.
They are restrictions on what you can do compared to other people. They set you apart from other people by making life more difficult for you. That may not be their immediate objective, but this is pretty much their necessary effect.
That’s a false dichotomy. The letter of the law IS the spirit of the law. If there’s a “loophole” that you see as contrary to the spirit, then you’re misunderstanding the spirit.
It’s still less convenient to do things in this “technicality” way then to do them straight-forwardly.
Nzinga, Seated:
That’s not true, Orthodox Jews do believe in an afterlife in which we are judged and rewarded or punished for our actions in Earthly life. It’s more a “spiritual state of being” than a “place” like Milton or Dante have portrayed the prevailing Christian notion of Hell, but it’s certainly a part of Judaic theology which the Orthodox still believe in.
Indeed. Though I’ve certainly known good Jews (and survivors) who choose instead to leave their living room lights on all night as a convenience. Stoves can become problematical but the ones I’m thinking of had a timer on their stove - not unlike my timer on my slow cooker here.
This has been an interesting read. Thanks to all who have contributed.
I’m a non-practicing Jew, and I don’t really “get” why anybody would go through all this trouble, but like gaffa, I find the level of commitment admirable.
Did we ever do a thread on retailers and similar that are closed on Shabbat? That would be fun. (meaning big ones, not little local shops, and not in Israel, obviously)
Let’s list our favorite “Here is the rule”; “here’s how to get around it” you’ve heard of in regard to Orthodox (or more strict) Judaism!
Rule: You can’t go outside during X observance
Dodge: If you erect sticks around yourselves and connect them with a string, you’re not outside. Even though you are 20 miles from anything recognizable as a structure.
Runner-up:
Rule:You cannot turn on a stove during the Sabbath (or any other of a myriad of occasions"
Dodge: You buy a stove with a blatant name of “Sabbath Feature” and adjust it so that it will turn itself on during the Sabbath. Actually, this is the most blatant violation I know. “If I set this knob like this, it will cause a fire to start on the Sabbath.” “Starting a fire on the Sabbath is prohibited”.
“you mean like this? twist”
"no, no, you have to push it in like this twist.“Now it will violate the Sabbath, but my hands will be clean!”
Yes, I can easily believe folks have been a this for 5000 years; you don’t et that slick overnight
This objection is stupid. There is no rule that says you cannot have the stove on on Shabbat, or that you cannot benefit from its warmth. There is no rule that you’re supposed to sit in the dark on Shabbat. The rule is that you cannot do creative work on Shabbat. Creating fire is considered part of it. Turning on a switch (which creates a spark = fire) is considered creative work.
If some contraption, without you doing anything on Shabbat, turns the stove on, you’re not doing the creative work. If you have a timer that turns the lights on and off that is set before Shabbat, you’re not doing creative work.
This is no “violation” by any stretch of imagination.\
Saying that “it [the contraption] will violate the Shabbat” is also stupid. Only a human, actually, more precisely, only a Jew can violate Shabbat. A contraption cannot.
People who think that this is “cheating” do not understand what the rules are to begin with.
OK, I don’t understand. It still reeks of “intent to violate” (reeks, hell! it is blatantly intent to violate).
And you pay extra specifically to get this ability.
I wonder how well they’d sell if they were advertised as “multi-day timer”, which, I take it, is what these are - you set it so it starts at the programmed time, but just on a different day.
If I ever go to trial, I want Orthodox Jews on the the jury - I didn’t shoot him - I just rigged a device to shoot him! Would never go over with a Goy jury, maybe anyone who really believes in “Sabbath Stoves” would buy it. How about: I didn’t put the bullet in him, I just moved this little metal lever a half inch - I wasn’t even in the same building!
If I push the button to start the timer at 23:59hrs or I push the button to start the timer at 00:01hrs, or if I just push the same button to instantly turn on the stove, I’m the one doing the button pushing. The timer is incidental. Unless you think the stove is the one setting the timer. Btw, what is stupid is believing that some omnipotent being cares when you start a stove.
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance]
Not unlike the Amish up in Pennsylvania. They might not be able to drive cars, but they can take buses to get where they want to go.
[/QUOTE]
That Amish rule violation is, to me, much less rules lawyer-y than “Sabbath goyim” though.
The reason the Amish don’t have cars of their own is that they strive to exist outside of the material world as much as possible. If you have a car, it needs gas, it needs maintenance, parts, tires : it’s a huge link to the “real world” that can’t be made to work inside the Amish autarky.
But if you *have *to go to the big city for one reason or another, you’re going to be stuck in the world for a spell anyway. Might as well use their materialistic buses while you’re at it, save on feedbags.
“Oy, is it dark in here?”
“Oy, is it dark in here.”
“Oy, is it dark in here!”
“Oy, is it dark in here!”
“Oy, is it dark in here!” Gentile friend turns on the light
…
That’s easy. Basically if there is a life at risk. An Israeli friend of mine told me that when a hospital needs a blood donation on a Saturday, they ask rabbinical students who just love the idea of going to the hospital in a police car with sirens screaming. And it is all legitimate, since there is no rule more important than saving lives.
But if you want to hear about using the letter of the law to avoid a commandment, you have to read about eruvim: Eruv - Wikipedia. One day my wife and I were walking down Flatbush Ave. in Brooklyn and she asked what was that thin wire strung between light poles. I guessed it was part of an eruv and checked with an Orthodox friend who lives in Brooklyn and he confirmed my guess. He told me that there was a war going on between two Orthodox groups, one putting up eruvim in Brooklyn while the other considered them illicit and tearing them down, even though they had no effect on them. Some people in Brooklyn have installed combination locks on their apartments so they won’t have to “carry” a key.
NYCity does not permit overhead wiring, so eruvim stand out. In the town I live in, there are wires all over and someone put together a notional eruv that didn’t require adding anything, just designating a collection of them to surround the whole town. But it became public and a few townspeople objected to this as supporting a religion. Understand, it was purely notional and anyone could ignore it. In fact, it is hard to see how it could be undone. It would be as if the Pope visited and blessed the town. It wouldn’t mean a thing to me, but how could I object?