Your post was right in line with my thinking, though I’d modify that last phrase. I’ve never been worried about getting raped on a display of rutabagas, so the supermarket isn’t too bad: it’s open, very public, brightly lit. But to be a woman is to have your guard up in places men might not recognize as vaguely threatening: an elevator, an empty hallway, almost anywhere in a bar. We might still chat with a friendly male stranger, but we’re always aware of the physical power differential.
And that’s only the physical side of things. I’ve walked blocks out of my way to avoid the catcalls from a construction site. One piece of advice I read said, “Call to them to stop.” I did. They thought that was hysterically funny. The reality is some men think of us as fair game no matter where we are. The other day I was walking home from the gym when some guy yelled out his car window, “Skanky bitch!” He clearly felt entitled to yell obscenities at an unfamiliar woman. I have no clue who he was.
Had we been at the supermarket, he might have asked me about kale.
Yeah, that’s fair enough. I guess I’d say that a man chatting up a woman should make sure she’s got a clear exit strategy from the situation and that you don’t have a clear assault vector.
This is something I try to pay attention to in any interaction with a woman, for just this reason. It’s little enough for me to slow my pace if there’s someone in front of me in the nearly-empty parking lot, so that I don’t close on her.
I probably err on the side of silliness: at an airport I saw a mom and her teenage daughter both reading excellent fantasy books, but rather than say, “Man, that Red London series is great fun, and I love me some Cathrynne Valente,” I smiled and went back to my phone, because I was worried she’d think I was being a creep if I made that comment.
But you’re right: it’s not enough to avoid obviously dangerous behavior.
I find it interesting that there is a mathematical theorem showing the “askers” have all the power. This supports my intuition that Sadie Hawkins feminism would empower women. Also above I see conflicting views on whether it is ok for a man to approach a woman he doesn’t know at a grocery store to strike up a conversation. And that it is a bad idea at a bar. In my daily life I do not percolate among bachelorettes. And if you say “a woman should be able to do X without a guy she doesn’t know trying to strike up a conversation” then I would agree with you in all cases. I have decided at a bar is the least bad place. And I have a sense that if a woman meets you for the first time at a bar she holds it against you. Perhaps I should reevaluate not approaching women elsewhere in light of the above comments.
Have you ever spoken to a heterosexual male who is single and dissatisfied? The fact that “in our society, men do the asking” is commonly a major complaint, not something they’re happy with. They see it less as holding power and more as having the onus on them.
I’m not sure all these assertions that it’s better to do the asking, or that the askees are entirely passive, really hold up.
I thought most of the research in recent years leaned towards the idea that people don’t generally get asked out from nothing but have to lay down hints / encouragement first for the asker.
So in fact, the askee is also making a choice, before the point of being explicitly invited to anything.
As for all the implications of it just being men asking women out, that just seems so old-fashioned to me. Are we still imagining a guy approaching a woman sat in a bar with a funny/cheeky chat-up line? The way most people meet is more organic than that IME.
Maybe the initiator of the conversation and the person who makes the first invite to do something together are not the same person. Maybe there’s a big gap between the first time they talk and the first time they go on a date. Maybe they met through work, or via a friend, etc etc.
Yes, spoken interactions are not as simplistic as people usually portray them. What you are referring to are called contextualization cues, and the research is actually not that recent.
Years ago I was walking through a Science Fiction convention with a friend of mine and her husband. We were in cosplay - and looked pretty good. A friend of her husbands came up to him “haven’t seen you in a long time…how’s in going…” My friend introduces his wife - they’d only been married a few months. The guy looks my friend up and down. Looks me up and down, and turns to my friend’s husband and says “well, is she taken?”
(“Best” pickup line ever!)
With that attitude women don’t want to signal they are single to every crass entitled yahoo out there. They are not interested in any generic man, they are interested in the men they are interested in. And if they are interested in you, they will generally let you know.
This seems to have changed since as the mother of a young adult son, and having friends with teenage and young adult sons - young women seem to have no problem asking guys out or making the first move.
We’ve had this discussion before a number of times on the SDMB. The consensus seems to be:* “Although it would be logically feminist for women to initiate and ask men out in just the same way that men have traditionally asked women out, many feminist women opt not to do so because being the initiator is always riskier, more inconvenient, and more uncomfortable (putting oneself out there) than it is to be the one initiated to.”*
What exactly do you mean by “hitting on women?” When I was in 9th grade I asked Jennifer out to what would be my first high school dance and was rejected. Was I hitting on her? Yes. Was she afraid I was going to flip out and kill her? I don’t think so. In fact I don’t think any woman who has rejected me has been afraid I’d flip out and kill her.
And they don’t all think alike either.
We gotta do something to let women know we’re interested. And to be fair women gotta do something to let us know they’re interested.
That’s actually a good piece of advice.
I especially liked “I can expect to be the initiator in dating and sex; unwanted sexual attention can be annoying but not frightening.” That’s a privilege? It can be stressful being the one expected to be the initiator all the time.
I am not convinced of your explanation after “because”. I will ask two questions, for which I suspect the answer is no:
Are women in high stakes negotiation/sales jobs “Sadie Hawkins” in their personal life? (Such jobs require taking risks, being inconvenienced, and uncomfortable in a manner analogous to asking someone out on a date, so they would not be out of their element.)
Do “Sadie Hawkins” scenes appear in romance novels to any significant degree?
And note that the way many women dress to attract men is “risky, inconvenient, and uncomfortable”, albeit in different ways than being an “asker”. As I said before, I suspect the answer is “female psychology”. I cannot explain it though.
The answer is that there isn’t marginal utility in them asking. They don’t value a date with you more than they value not asking you. Maybe they think the fantasy is better than the reality. Maybe they just aren’t that into you. Maybe they fear rejection. Maybe their best friend has a mad crush on you so even though they think you are great and would date you, they feel like they can’t. Maybe its a stranger in a bar is cute situation, and although she thinks you are interesting and cute, she doesn’t do that because she doesn’t want you to think she’s the type who picks up guys in bars (not because she doesn’t want you to think she’s a slut, but because she doesn’t want you to get all rapey or abusive when she has no intention of having sex with you that night because you think she’s a slut, but if you initiate meeting for coffee, she’d go for that) - but if you ask her out, she’d agree to meet you somewhere. Maybe she knows from meeting you that you will be, at best for her, a short term sex buddy who is good in bed - but she is looking for a guy she can have kids with and grow old with, and you aren’t that guy.
When there is sufficient upside for a woman to ask a guy out, she will. When there is not, she won’t.
