Why isn't the IRA considered a Terrorist Group?

[Ravenman]

@finn007

Tell me how could THE UNIONIST PARTY HAVE EXISTED IN 1905 WHEN PARTITION DIDNT COME TILL 1922…you are refering to a council not a political party

ARTHUR GRIFFITHS FORMED SINN FEIN IN 1900/01…BUT IT FOUGHT ELECTINS IN 1905

Since you’re new around here, I’d politely suggest that your points will be better made by linking to citations for your assertions of fact, rather than repeating them in big letters, as you’ve done a few times in this thread. I don’t dispute anything you’re saying, just trying to be helpful.

Welcome to the Dope.

[Jojo]

Finn said:

Tell me how could THE UNIONIST PARTY HAVE EXISTED IN 1905 WHEN PARTITION DIDNT COME TILL 1922…you are refering to a council not a political party

ARTHUR GRIFFITHS FORMED SINN FEIN IN 1900/01…BUT IT FOUGHT ELECTINS IN 1905

You’re right that Sinn Fein were the first “political party” to contest elections. However, the Ulster Unionists already had a sitting MP - Edward Saunderson. From the UUP website (I linked to above):

Edward James Saunderson was the first leader of modern Ulster Unionism. He was born in 1837 at Castle Saunderson, the family estate near Belturbet, County Cavan. As a Liberal he became MP for County Cavan in 1865. He lost his seat to a Home Ruler in 1874, but eleven years later he became MP for North Armagh, a seat that he retained until his death in 1906. From 1886 he assumed the leadership of the Irish and Ulster Unionist MPs at Westminster. A statue of Colonel Saunderson was erected in Market Street, Portadown, in 1910, and depicts his opposition to Home Rule.

So he was elected as a Liberal MP (long before Sinn Fein ever came about) but he changed his mind along the way and founded the Ulster Unionist party. They’d been going since 1886 - he was just using the protection of being a Liberal MP to save his position in parliament.

Maybe he didn’t form the official party till 1905 (same year as Sinn Fein) but it was certainly a political movement before then. What’s the difference between a political party and a political movement? Apart from the fact that one has been granted licence to exist by the state and one hasn’t? One has received acknowledgement by the ruling elite and one hasn’t?

Fuck the ruling elite, they’re the whole problem.

[finn007]

@Jojo

Finn said:

You’re right that Sinn Fein were the first “political party” to contest elections. However, the Ulster Unionists already had a sitting MP - Edward Saunderson. From the UUP website (I linked to above):

So he was elected as a Liberal MP (long before Sinn Fein ever came about) but he changed his mind along the way and founded the Ulster Unionist party. They’d been going since 1886 - he was just using the protection of being a Liberal MP to save his position in parliament.

Maybe he didn’t form the official party till 1905 (same year as Sinn Fein) but it was certainly a political movement before then. What’s the difference between a political party and a political movement? Apart from the fact that one has been granted licence to exist by the state and one hasn’t? One has received acknowledgement by the ruling elite and one hasn’t?

Fuck the ruling elite, they’re the whole problem.

I think you will find from the dates you quote you are talking of a political unit called GB AND IRELAND,IT IS NOW GB AND N.IRELAND, I’M talking IRISH political parties and they can only really be considered from 1922 but also SINN FEIN fights elections in the 26and 6 counties so are the only party to be an all ireland party, and despite all your googling SINN FEIN IS THE OLDEST POLITICAL PARTY TO FIGHT ELECTIONS IN 32 COUNTIES AND STILL ARE THE ONLY PARTY TO DO SO.

[tomndebb]

Remember since the 9th/11th century IRELAND was one country,one religion,one language,one people.BRITIAN especially since HENRY VIII,sought to destroy IRELAND its language,its religion, its people,

Tamerlane has addressed most of the other issues, but while I agree that the English conquest of Ireland was wrong–particularly in the barbaric manner that it was periodically carried out–it should be noted that the reason that Henry VIII (and several of his forebears and most of his successors) cast his (their) eye on Ireland was that the feuding Irish had had a (bad) habit of inviting Norman lords to set up housekeeping in various Irish districts as a way to get some ready-made military support for one side or the other’s ongoing wars. After a while, sufficient numbers of armed landholders in Ireland owed fealty to the English kings that those kings came to look on Ireland as a land settled by English. This did not make their actions right, but the situation was not one of the English king waking up some morning and deciding to go conquer a neighbor. (This is not a rare occurrence in history: Rome expanded “by invitation” throughout the Mediterranean; several groups of Indians of New England and in Mexico made the mistake of seeking to establish mutual aid treaties with the well-armed European army (Mexico) or settlers (New England) against their cousin Indians rather than banding together to shove the Europeans into the sea, after which the increasingly numerous Europeans destroyed the “hostile” nations then simply overran the “friendly” ones.)

And Finn? As noted elsewhere, posting in all caps does not make your argument. In fact, it makes it appear as though you need to shout because you have so little evidence. Much that you have posted was accurate. Don’t undercut your own position by making it seem that you are all hat and no cattle.

[finn007]

@Zoe

Through the years some have considered them terrorists and some have considered them freedom fighters. I don’t condon the murder of civilians by anyone – whether it be the IRA, Americans, English, or Iraqi insurgents. But they represented an oppressed people for a long, long time.

Unless I’ve missed something, things are much more peaceful now than they were twenty or thirty years ago… or a hundred years ago…or…

Think about your analogy of Texas wanting to withdraw from the Union. Now substitute that notion with the idea of the Colonies wanting to separate from England. Were the “patriots” terrorists? I would bet that the Tories thought so.

I know I’m being simplistic, but it is sometimes a matter of where you grow up and who wins the war. The victors are usually the ones who write the histories, so I am told, and they put a different spin on it than the conquererd would have.

Despite my “location” indicator in the upper right, I’m not from Ireland. Just a lover of the poetry of Yeats. I know that my knowledge of the situation is limited

Well we have one thing in common a love of W.B.YEATS…I LiVE OH 3 MILE FROM drumcliff where he is buried under BARE BEN BULBEN’S HEAD IN DRUMCLIFF CHURCHYARD YEATS IS LAID

cast a cold eye
on life,on death.
Horseman,pass by!

Through seven heroic centuries;
cast your mind on other days
That we in coming days may be
Still the indomitable Irishry.

[finn007]

@tomndebb

Tamerlane has addressed most of the other issues, but while I agree that the English conquest of Ireland was wrong–particularly in the barbaric manner that it was periodically carried out–it should be noted that the reason that Henry VIII (and several of his forebears and most of his successors) cast his (their) eye on Ireland was that the feuding Irish had had a (bad) habit of inviting Norman lords to set up housekeeping in various Irish districts as a way to get some ready-made military support for one side or the other’s ongoing wars. After a while, sufficient numbers of armed landholders in Ireland owed fealty to the English kings that those kings came to look on Ireland as a land settled by English. This did not make their actions right, but the situation was not one of the English king waking up some morning and deciding to go conquer a neighbor. (This is not a rare occurrence in history: Rome expanded “by invitation” throughout the Mediterranean; several groups of Indians of New England and in Mexico made the mistake of seeking to establish mutual aid treaties with the well-armed European army (Mexico) or settlers (New England) against their cousin Indians rather than banding together to shove the Europeans into the sea, after which the increasingly numerous Europeans destroyed the “hostile” nations then simply overran the “friendly” ones.)

And Finn? As noted elsewhere, posting in all caps does not make your argument. In fact, it makes it appear as though you need to shout because you have so little evidence. Much that you have posted was accurate. Don’t undercut your own position by making it seem that you are all hat and no cattle.

You may well be MODERATOR of this site but that means nothing to me when you try to excuse the barbarism of BRITIAN through the centuries and please do not attemp to insult my intelligence about NORMANS, that nonsense is played out every so often,that it’s become a music hall joke.

I speak of IRELAND because i am of IRELAND and all your other postings are of no interest to me;Regarding caps well i’m not a typist and i have a slight disabilty which sometimes leads me into caps. But MODERATOR or no i will express my opinions and if you will not allow me my right to do so,say now and i’ll leave the board.

[finn007]

@Tamerlane

While I actually agree that Northern Ireland is a gerrymandered territory that probably shouldn’t have come in to existence, Little Nemo does have a point of sorts. The history of Ireland as anything approaching a unitary entity does have a comparatively short history compared to Ireland as a possesion of the British crown. Heck, even Wales retained their independence longer.

Then again as a counter to Little Nemo one could argue that insomuch as Ireland was usually either a) ignored or b) treated more as a colonial possesion inhabited by subhuman barbarians, rather than as integral part of the kingdom as England’s French possesions between 1066 and 1453 ( or Calais to 1558 ), or indeed even Wales, that that long history of association is rather less meaningful than it might appear on the surface.

Factually incorrect. The Irish church and monastic institutions do have some impressive accomplishments to their name, but they were hardly unique. The cultural breakdown of western Europe the dark ages, while accurate enough in a few respects, is still too often exaggerated ( and it rather ignores the persistence of Byzantium ).

Not quite - really the appellation was originally perfectly apt. In Scotland ( then called Alba or Alban ) it was applied originally to those Irish from the Dal Riata dynasty ( itself possibly originally of Pictish origin ) of Ulaid who had settled what came to be known as Dalriada in the area around Kintyre ( not just Iona ). Scotland became a more general descriptor only slowly after Kenneth MacAlpin, king of the Scots of Dalriada gained the combined throne of Pictland to become kung of the Picts and Scots. At that the titles of his successors was more often Rex Pictorum ( the more important throne of the two ) or Alba. Only after a few generations did the name Scotia come to stick and it was reasonable from a political perspective, I guess.

They helped reintroduce/reinvigorate Christianity to pagan Anglo-Saxon England and perhaps helped foster the survival of literacy, but that is hardly entirely synonymous with civilization - the pagan Germans had their own version, afterall :).

Irish accomplishments were/are impressive, but let’s not start ascribing to them the literal mantle of saviors of civilization, as one popular book title has perhaps overheatedly suggested.

• Tamerlane

Sorry there are so many inaccuries in your post that it would entail quite awhile to respond and it is 6 am here so it will have to wait.Just remember Ireland was only joined by the act of union in 1800.And to claim pictish infuence in ULSTER is quite ridiculous,but its late sorry i must leave

[Guinastasia]

If I’m not mistaken, the IRA is unique in that it did not start out as a terrorist organization, did it? Wasn’t it originally the Irish Brotherhood, founded to rest control of Ireland from Great Britain?

[Menocchio]

He’s excusing nothing, just giving some history and context on how the British conquest of Ireland came to be. Calm down. Your passion is almost as detrimental to your credibility as your habit of capitalization.

Welcome to the boards. When a mod gives you advice, don’t argue.

[Captain_Amazing]

@finn007

You may well be MODERATOR of this site but that means nothing to me when you try to excuse the barbarism of BRITIAN through the centuries and please do not attemp to insult my intelligence about NORMANS, that nonsense is played out every so often,that it’s become a music hall joke.

Except all that with the Normans is true. If you look at MacMurrough, who was king of Leinster before he was overthrown, he went to England after his overthrow, and married his daughter to the Earl of Pembroke (and made him his heir) in exchange for an army. So, the Earl of Pembroke inherited Leinster legitimately. That was what first brought Ireland to English attention.

[Tamerlane]

@finn007

You may well be MODERATOR of this site but that means nothing to me when you try to excuse the barbarism of BRITIAN through the centuries

Huh. I must have missed that.

and please do not attemp to insult my intelligence about NORMANS, that nonsense is played out every so often,that it’s become a music hall joke.

Eh? tom was pretty much on the money in his comments. Dermot MacMurrough wasn’t even the first Irish king to seek Norman alliances. Murchetach O’Brien had earlier married his daughter to the Norman lord of Pembroke in Wales and briefly became entangled in that notable’s dispute with Henry I. As it was Henry II could hardly tolerate his ( disgraced at that - he persisted in supporting king Stephen a bit to long and was deprived of his earldom of Pembroke when Henry took the throne ) vassal Richard FitzGilbert de Clare to establish and independent powerbase in Leinster. That direction led to dissolutuion of royal authority - witness the d’Hautevilles ( minor Norman lords originally ) conquering their own independent kingdom in Sicily and southern Italy.

The English kings did generally treat even the most faithful of native lords with less than respect. Really only one old Irish noble house prospered as early feudal magnates in the English Pale for example. But still, originally English interference grew out of a natural interplay of politics ( though it certainly appears the Papacy was also quite interested in an English dominion given their differences with elements of the Irish church ).

I speak of IRELAND because i am of IRELAND and all your other postings are of no interest to me;

Then whose are? Only other Irish posters?

But MODERATOR or no i will express my opinions and if you will not allow me my right to do so,say now and i’ll leave the board.

I don’t see where anybody has suppressed your right to do so. Yet, at any rate. IMO tom was pretty respectful, as he almost always is ( until pushed ). No reason to be so contentious in the face of polite discourse.

• Tamerlane

[Tamerlane]

@Tamerlane

Murchetach O’Brien had earlier married his daughter to the Norman lord of Pembroke in Wales and briefly became entangled in that notable’s dispute with Henry I.

In this case ( a generation or two earlier ) said lord was Arnulf of Montgomery, not a de Clare, less someone get confused by my and good Captain’s post.

@finn007

Sorry there are so many inaccuries in your post that it would entail quite awhile to respond and it is 6 am here so it will have to wait.

Take your time. I always welcome correction ;).

Just remember Ireland was only joined by the act of union in 1800.

Legalities - the kings of Ireland all eventually submitted to Henry II in the 1170’s and were under the English monarchy’s thumb to some extent ( however limited at times ) from then on out.

And to claim pictish infuence in ULSTER is quite ridiculous,but its late sorry i must leave

Picts = Cruithin in Ireland and I believe northern Ireland was their last refugium. My understanding ( and on this I readiily admit I might be well outdated ) that there is reason to believe that the Dal Riata dynasty was probably originally of Cruithin origin, as were a number of the dynasties of old Ulster. Granted by the time the subkingdom of Dalriada ( under a Mormaer ) had been established they had almost certainly been long since completely Gaelicized.

• Tamerlane

[finn007]

@Guinastasia

If I’m not mistaken, the IRA is unique in that it did not start out as a terrorist organization, did it? Wasn’t it originally the Irish Brotherhood, founded to rest control of Ireland from Great Britain?

you talk of the IRISH REPUBLICAN BROTHERHOOD founded not in IRELAND but the USA in the 19th cent. MICHAEL COLLINS originally in the IRB,founded by clarke,CLARKE WAS executed BY the british after the 1916 rising really the IRA was the FOLLOW ON to the IRB

Neither was a TERRORIST organisation…if so, so were the AMERICANS IN 1760…

IT seems fashionable to-day for AMERICA to decide who is or isn’t a terrorist,sorry but not in my book, by a long chalk.

[finn007]

@Tamerlane

Huh. I must have missed that.

Eh? tom was pretty much on the money in his comments. Dermot MacMurrough wasn’t even the first Irish king to seek Norman alliances. Murchetach O’Brien had earlier married his daughter to the Norman lord of Pembroke in Wales and briefly became entangled in that notable’s dispute with Henry I. As it was Henry II could hardly tolerate his ( disgraced at that - he persisted in supporting king Stephen a bit to long and was deprived of his earldom of Pembroke when Henry took the throne ) vassal Richard FitzGilbert de Clare to establish and independent powerbase in Leinster. That direction led to dissolutuion of royal authority - witness the d’Hautevilles ( minor Norman lords originally ) conquering their own independent kingdom in Sicily and southern Italy.

The English kings did generally treat even the most faithful of native lords with less than respect. Really only one old Irish noble house prospered as early feudal magnates in the English Pale for example. But still, originally English interference grew out of a natural interplay of politics ( though it certainly appears the Papacy was also quite interested in an English dominion given their differences with elements of the Irish church ).

Then whose are? Only other Irish posters?

I don’t see where anybody has suppressed your right to do so. Yet, at any rate. IMO tom was pretty respectful, as he almost always is ( until pushed ). No reason to be so contentious in the face of polite discourse.

• Tamerlane

Sorry but i must correct you dont tell me in your opinion about** tom **and being respectable and then an implied threat (until pushed)for i can assure you i will not be pushed by anyone and dont insinuate i was being contentious in what you call polite discourse throwing a whole different meaning out of context of what was said.
Frankly you are not just impolite you are mischievous.

[Avenger]

i can assure you i will not be pushed by anyone

Well, I’m up for a wager

[Tamerlane]

@finn007

Sorry but i must correct you dont tell me in your opinion about** tom **and being respectable and then an implied threat (until pushed)

Y’know that really wasn’t what I meant, but obviously debating this or anything else further is just going to be a waste of my time.

for i can assure you i will not be pushed by anyone

Well, I’m certainly picking up on the fact that the assertiveness training was a big success. Excellent.

and dont insinuate i was being contentious in what you call polite discourse throwing a whole different meaning out of context of what was said.

Err…okay :).

Frankly you are not just impolite you are mischievous.

Sweet Jesus! Not mischievous, too!

Well. Damn. Have to work on that I guess.

• Tamerlane

[furt]

@finn007

i have a slight disabilty which sometimes leads me into caps.

At the risk of both hijack and insensitivity, I’d be very interested in hearing what sort of disabilty causes one to put words into caps.

[tomndebb]

finn007, if I address you in my capacity as Moderator I will note it in my post. You are not being threatened, only corrected on the historical inaccuracies your posts have conveyed. (You are the one who acted as though the troubles began with Henry VIII when clearly there were general entanglements with the English King nearly half a millennium earlier.)

My coment regarding your use of all caps was simply as a poster, (not a Moderator), noting a point of etiquette. Using all caps on a message board is regarded as the same as shouting and, as in any face-to-face discussion, generally the person who first loses his temper and begins shouting is considered to have lost the argument.
The point is that we are all playing for a broader audience and you will harm your own presentation with repeated use of capitalization.

Regarding the actual discussion, here, I have made no excuses for the British. My statement was that their conquest was wrong. I noted that they have resorted to barbaric practices. However, it is not accurate to claim that they simply wandered over in the sixteenth century and began gobbling up large chunks of Ireland. The history is longer and more convoluted than that (a point for which both Captain Amazing and Tamerlane have provided specific evidence). You have claimed that Tamerlane’s post was filled with inaccuracies. If that is true, it would be polite for you to point out the specific errors. That is what the Straight Dope is all about, fighting ignorance. (A certain restraint in tone–along with supporting citations–will help you persuade others that you know what you are talking about, but we welcome factual corrections, here.)

[tomndebb]

(And just for the record (in case this late night posting happened to cloud your first reading), Tamerlane’s comment was that I tend to be polite until I am pushed. No one claimed that anyone intended to push you. Now Tamerlane may have overstated my capacity for courtesy, but you seem to be getting pretty worked up over an otherwise civil discussion, here.)

[Zoe]

finn007: Well we have one thing in common a love of W.B.YEATS…I LiVE OH 3 MILE FROM drumcliff where he is buried…

That is amazing! Would you do me a kindness the next time you are by there? Would you place a flower on his grave? Just a wildflower or a handful of clover will do. If nothing is handy, then place a stone. I would be very grateful. You are the second Irishman I have asked to do this at SDMB, but the other didn’t live nearly so close and I don’t know if he remembered.

(Thanks from Tennessee)