And then there was the asshole who ran smack into her foot, which was sticking out, and didn’t even stop to see if she was all right when she yelled, “OW!” If I’d been there I’D have run him down and hurt him badly, and I’m not supposed to run! Ever. (Odd orthopedic problems.) Let’s see, there’s a woman in a wheelchair with a heavily bandaged (I assume, I haven’t seen it) foot sticking straight out --what woman? Oh, you mean THAT’S what I tripped over? Oops. Oh well…
She also just LOVES when people look over her head and don’t even notice she’s there. :rolleyes: I know all about that, happens to me a lot, being noticeably shorter than average. “Welcome to my world,” I told her when she mentioned that.
Arrrrgh. She’s always been all for accessibility, and now she knows exactly why.
as an architectural intern let me assure ou that this is NOT true.
as bnorton stated, the ADA sets the minimum. Handrails are a minimum. no exceptions. none.
I have worked on drawings for many states and genereally speaking, they are pretty much the same as the ADA. If anything, they are stricter.
It is complete bullshit for anyone to say it’s making small biz. shut down. ADA is MANDATORY and should be regarded as part of the cost of owning a biz.
As I understand it, a biz is not fined if it is not ADA compliant. They must however, fix the problem or face being shut down.
I highly recommend that you report that restaurant ot the code enforcers of your city.
was the toilet 17" -19" above the finished floor? It has to be. so a ‘mini’ toilet, too, is not acceptable.
There must also be a curbcut. That is probably something the landlord has to do, not the restaurant itself.
I have a question that is a little - umm - indelicate. Several years ago I watched a show about a teenager in a wheelchair on MTV. Mostly what life was like, what she had to put up with, etc… One thing she said has always stuck with me though. And here’s the indelicate part.
This girl was saying that her having to go to the bathroom wasn’t exactly the same as a walking person because by the time her body feels the need she’s past scoping out an accessible bathroom. I think the basic (and admittedly elementary remembrance on my part) reason was that her sensations in her excretory systems were not as “alert” as a walking person’s and when she felt the need to go she had to go. The whole point of this segment was to let people know Do not use the handicap accessible bathroom unless you are actually one of the people that need to use it! Just “wanting the extra room” is not a real need!
Anyhoo, my question is this: does this hold true for most people in wheelchairs? I am guessing not for people who have foot or knee problems, but if you are paralyzed wouldn’t that interfere with your nerve endings in that region? If this is the case wouldn’t blocked access become not only frustrating but also dangerous (she said that not being able to void your bladder or bowels could cause her great harm)?
bnorton and Bad News Baboon, thanks for the updated info. I worked for a construction company that retrofitted buildings for this; however, my information must pre-date the ADA.
It’s not just people in wheelchairs - millions of Americans suffer from one degree or another of incontinence. It can be a result of pregnancy, prostate surgery, a side-effect of some diseases like diabetes, accident… At least if a person is in a wheelchair the fact they have a physical problem isn’t likely to be questioned, but if you’re up and walking AND you insist you have to use the bathroom NOW … well, this isn’t always met with sympathy.
I know of one case where a young man in his 20s who had suffered lower spinal damage that allowed him to walk fine but screwed up his “waste dump alert” system asked, begged, and pleaded to be allowed to use the bathroom at a small store of some sort where they threatened to call the police if he didn’t stop asking to use their bathroom which, they maintained, was not for public use. Well, he wound up having an accident. So when the police were called he got chewed out for throwing his shit-soaked jeans at the counter ladies, they got chewed out for not letting him use the can, and the health department got called about the state of the carpet.
You know, would have been much easier for everyone if they had just let him use the goddamned toilet.
I just wanted to say that this thread has opened my eyes to another form of incredible insensitivity (and just when I didn’t think I could be surprised by humans anymore); it has NEVER occurred to me to think that a person in a wheelchair was lucky to not have to walk around, or to tell them this to their faces. How completely lacking in empathy do you have to be to think this way? ::still shaking my head in disbelief here::
In high school, two of my friends spent part of the day at the local vo-tech school, for the healthcare industry. One of their assignments was to spend a day in a wheelchair.
One of my friends said she learned a new respect for those who use them.
I was lucky enough to have a law professor who understood the heart of the ADA - I hope she’s passed some of that compassion on to me because it is all too clear from your post that we’re talking about very basic activities.
I attempted to use a particular restroom at my college - it was, supposedly, “handicapped accessible”. They were almost correct in saying that, too; the stall was wide enough for me to fit my wheelchair in, but not deep enough. If I closed the door, I wouldn’t have enough room to stand, much less turn around. My only option was to send a friend to guard the door whilst I did my thing with the stall door wide the fuck open.
[hijack]
And yeah, I love the doors that open out (although it’s not a big deal in my case; I have a strong upper body). I adore being referred to by restaurant hosts/hostesses, parents of young kids, etc. as “the wheelchair” (i.e. “Three and a wheelchair?” or “Watch the wheelchair!”).
Most of all, I love being stared at. My (also wheelchair bound) friend & I were on a public bus Sunday morning, coming home from a long night of partying; the entire bus stared at us from the moment we boarded to the moment it pulled away after we de-bussed.
All I have to say is it boggles my fucking mind, that someone would say those types of things. Please take some satisfaction knowing that it is they, not you, who are handicapped.
I think my daughter had a magic wheelchair. Children seemed to be able to see her in it just fine. However it was invisable to adults. The minute I put her in the chair they couldn’t see her at all.
** Gr8Kat ** I’m sorry you had to be embarrassed. I am just so angry that we’ve been fighting for understanding for so long and we still have so far to go.
(slight hijack)
I’ll share a little story with you that always makes me smile.
I was at a casino last year and was walking along an aisle behind some young men and an elderly lady with a crutch. These punks were having a fit about having to walk slow. One of them kept making remarks about how old people should stay at home out of people’s way.
The men went into the bathroom and the lady sat at a machine near the door to the men’s room. When the guys came out she stuck her crutch right in front of the loud mouth. As he landed face down on the floor, she said sweetly “Oh! did you trip on my crutch? We old people sometimes forget were we put things.”
My wife is constantly amazed by the number of people who dash around her scooter and then slow down or even stop walking after they get in front of her. Then they wonder why she bumps into them.
Wow, were you in South Dakota? All the toilets on my recent vacation there were tiny. I am big, wide front to back and sitting on those things I am hardly able to wipe my ass. Oh, and I want to permanently wire the knees together and shorten the arms of the person who thought that wall around the toilet was a good idea in the hotel. I can’t wipe from behind, I must spread 'em and reach through. That wall was torture. I could not spread my knees at all. And it was a nice roomy hotel suite. It did not lack space, just some jackass had to put a half wall around the toilet.
I think that tiny toilets must use less water and that is why they were there in South Dakota, Wyoming, and Nebraska. I much prefer the German shit-on-a-shelf solution to that problem.
The accessibility problem I hate is the shallow stall. A stall that is otherwise ok with hand rails and a nice raised toilet, too shallow so that someone in a wheel chair can’t shut the door. Lovely. Being in a wheel chair sucks enough without having to expose yourself to the whole big restroom as the one poor person had to on a restaurant in Minnesota. Poor woman had on a diaper and was trying to change it in a open stall. Those stalls were so shallow I had to straddle the toilet to open the door back up and the handicap stall was no deeper. There were at least 4 stalls in that restroom. If one had been taken out and the space added to the handicap stall, then it would have been useful, but no.
And no, it isn’t only those in wheel chairs that appreciate curb cuts. I hated the Canadian airports because the curb police obviously had not been there. No curb cuts meant sore arms and back form hoisting my luggage up the curb and lowering it again. I adore curb cuts.
My bathroom peeve is the damn air fresheners that gas you unexpectedly. They trigger my asthma. They could be the death of me.
I just recently discovered this thread, and read it with great interest. In my thirty one years I have only been confined to a wheelchair for two very brief periods, when I hurt my knee (same injury both times). I hated it, and I can only try to imagine how much it must suck to be confined to one permanently.
I have a question for the OP. Gr8Kat, are you going to try to take some kind of action against this restaurant? Some kind of legal action I mean, or filing some kind of complaint, or something? I’m not a lawyer, and I guess the other posters here aren’t either, but if what they are saying is true, you have a real cause of action. Isn’t the ADA, after all, supposed to give you the legal tools to do more about stuff like this than just post to a message board? I would think you also might be able to get a substantial damages award from them in civil court, for your pain and suffering.
I’d really appreciate it if you would follow up on this, I am curious to know what you are going to do.
Ya know its just plain unfortunate that people are so fucking insensative in general. I mean about damn near everything not just the handicapped.
schools should teach basic awareness, as in how to use that shread of empathy you posess to try and see what the other person is going through.
sorry if I ever landed in your lap at a concert at 6’3" I am kinda tall to see a wheel chair in a crowd. (only happened twice and yes I was very sorry both times)
I hadn’t contemplated legal action. Pain and suffering? The only thing damaged in the end was my pride. I don’t know… if I’d fallen off the tiny toilet and cracked my head on the tile, I could see pursuing legal action, but I can’t see suing them for inconveniencing me. If I sued everyone who inconvenienced me, I wouldn’t have time for anything else.
That’s just the way the world is. I can’t even get my employer to put up extra automatic door-opening buttons because it’s “not required.” Yes, there are buttons on the doors I use most of the time, but there aren’t buttons on other doors I use frequently; doors that are also for the public to use. Again, I’ve tried to convince my employer that it wouldn’t just be for me, it would be for the elderly, people with their hands full, and people who are otherwise incapacitated. But “it’s not required.” Did I mention that I work for the state government??
No, suing people isn’t practical and just results in “That’s Outrageous!”-type resentment. Even with the ADA, all I feel I can do is come to the Pit and blow off steam occasionally. If I accidentally educate some people in the process, good, that’s a bonus.
I can’t believe that people stare at our fine, wheelchair-bound posters. I mean, stare?! How fucking rude!
The comments, though, have occurred to me. But only after I spent all day walking around an amusement park or a zoo (especially the zoo) and I see all the people in the motorized carts, and the kids in the wagons, and I think, “It would be nice to be able to sit and still look at all the pretty animals!” But Jesus Christ, to actually say something like that to somebody? Fuck.
Total sympathy, Gr8Kat. I truly thought I had a clue as to the accommodations needed for the disabled, until I became friends with a young man who is a paraplegic and tried to help him find an apartment. I called one promising lead and was told that yes, the apartment was handicapped-accessible. They said they had curbcuts in the parking lot, ramps leading to the front door, 36 inch wide doorways, the whole shebang. So we went to look at it. Turns out that all the above was indeed present, but one small fact was missed: the bedroom and bathroom in this apartment were UPSTAIRS. The apartment manager then asked me (because of course, my friend in the wheelchair was invisible), “Well, how often do you think he would need to use those rooms?” Gee, honey, I dunno… he could probably sleep on the sofa and piss out the window…
In defense of those who don’t get it, I will say that for the most part, they simply do not get it - until I was spending days on end with a handicapped person, I never thought of all the things that are more difficult for him. I assumed that making accommodations for the disabled was a simple matter, and the truth is, it’s not. Yes, there are minimum standards and you should definitely expect any public place to meet them, but unless the building was built after the ADA laws were passed, there’s the matter of retrofitting every darn thing. Besides which, the minimum standards sometimes aren’t enough - for example, doorways should be 36 inches wide to accommodate wheelchairs… but if your chair happens to BE 36 inches wide, you’re not going to be able to get through. Additionally, people who are not disabled don’t understand, and probably can’t be expected to, every aspect of a mobility issue. I guess the best you can do is give them credit for trying, and do what you can to educate them when they miss the mark.
I agree. It may be that the restaurant is still clueless as to why you had such difficulties with their restroom. Could you not write a nice letter to the restaurant telling them how much you enjoy their food and how you would like to keep coming back, but their toilet is essentially worthless? Suggest what they could do to improve things. Point out that this is likely to be a problem for other patrons. Don’t even mention the ADA - that might make them defensive. Who knows? Maybe they’ll respond favorably.
Or not. But it’s worth a shot, right? The way I see it, you’re doing them a favor by alerting them to the problem.
