Why no domesticated medium-sized cats?

[moriah]

@pravnik

My WAG–no antelope problem in our granaries. Part of the driving force behind the domestication of the cat was curbing the rodent problem in our cities and storehouses, which wouldn’t lend itself to a larger predator like a cheetah.

@Blake

As for why we don’t breed domestic cats bigger, it’s largely been because there has never been any need or desire to do so.

People bred mastiffs because they wanted dogs that could kill people or bring down deer, and to do that the dog needed to be big. People bred terriers because they wanted a dog that could chase burrowing prey animals and vermin. There has never been any such pressure on cats because cats have never been used in that way. Cats were encouraged because they preyed on rodents. That’s all they’ve ever really been used for. The ideal cat form for preying on rodents is the one that evolution had already produced even before humans evolved. There has never been any need to modify it.

Well, what about breeding larger cats to deal with killer sheep in the wainscotting?

Peace.

[Bad_News_Baboon]

A related hijack:

why no ‘tea cup’ cats?

We have mini dogs, but why no mini cats?

…or is there such a breed?

[daffyduck]

Large cats are one of the newest trends in cat breeding. One of the new breeds being developed in the Savanna Cat which is a cross between a Serval and a domestic cat.

If you google for savanna cats you will find a lot of information.

Here is a page with a picture that will give you an idea of their size.

Be ready to spend anywhere from $1500 to $3000.

[Reeder]

Oh come on people.

You domesticate cats one cat at a time. If you have a people loving queen and tom and they have a litter. And you don’t handle the kittens in that litter early…

You try picking those kittens up.

You ain’t gonna do it.

[Colibri]

@Blake

Mason, Evolution of domesticated animals. 1988

“Recent discoveries of cat remains associated with Neolithic human burials in Cyprus, Central Iran and Northern China suggest independent domestication in these locales.”

That’s a pretty weak cite for a statement like “most of the evidence to date supports multiple domestications.” I wouldn’t have minded if you had said something like “some evidence suggests there may have been independent domestications in other places.” You have a tendency to overstate the extent of your evidence, as you apparently have done here.

And since we’re playing the “Cite!” game Colibri, can we please have a reference for your claim that only the North African wildcat has ever been domesticated? Not a refernce that says that they have been domesticated, but that the North African population is the only population of cat to ever be domesticated.

I’ll retract that, and say just that the North African Wild Cat is the only form of Felis sylvestris definitely known to have been domesticated. I’ll grant that it’s possible that other forms may have been domesticated independently. However, I’d like to see some genetic data that supports this. (And more than simple introgression of some alleles.)

@Blake

As I’ve already pointed out there is no such expense. Wild caught cheetahs were kept as hunting animals and they paid for themselves, at least for the nobility.

It’s rather unlikely that wild caught cheetahs hunted every day, and brought in all their own food. Their owners would have had the expense of feeding them much of the time.

[Loopydude]

There’s some controversy over when and where cats were first domesticated. I do think it’s pretty safe to say most were essentially feral until fairly recently, kind of living on the fringes, eating rodents attracted to our granieries, and only occasionally being brought into the house as pets. They just haven’t been bred as extensively as dogs; but in a few hundred years, who knows what whacky breeds we might see?

My guess about bigger cats as pets, as mentioned above, is that they’d be a hazard. My cat only weights about 12 pounds, and when it comes time to bathe him or clip his claws, he puts up an astonishingly effective fight. He can wriggle out of almost any hold, and though he doesn’t deliberately try to scratch or bite me (which I am grateful for), I’ve gotten a few good gouges inadvertently. Once a curious neigbor dog cornered him in my house, and he messed that dog up. Boy did I feel like crap after that. Can you imagine trying to deal with an angry puma or lynx? Or a tiger? Uh-uh. Ten pounds of feline fury is plenty for me, thanks.

[Blake]

No Colibri I overstated nothing. All the evidence that anyone has been able to provide supports what I said. ALL of it. When you present even one shred of evidence that cats weren’t domesticated multiple times then I will retract my claim that most of the evidence says multiple domestications. Since there is some evidence for multiple domestications and no evidence whatsoever against it what I said was perfectly correct.

In this instance at least Colibri the only one overstating anything is yourself.

It’s rather unlikely that wild caught cheetahs hunted every day, and brought in all their own food.

Nor did I suggest they did. You are once again being deliberately obtuse as you so often are. Wild cheetahs were caught and sold as hunting animals, They commanded quote a high price. Whether they could be fed or otherwise is quite irrelevant. Because they could hunt people were willing to pay for them. There was no expense in producing cheetahs, it was profitable enterprise. Anyone who could have domesticated cheetahs in the sens eof breeding them in captivity for use in hunting would have made quite a tidy profit. How can you possibly claim that such a domestication is an expense?

[Desmostylus]

@Blake

No Colibri I overstated nothing. All the evidence that anyone has been able to provide supports what I said. ALL of it. When you present even one shred of evidence that cats weren’t domesticated multiple times then I will retract my claim that most of the evidence says multiple domestications. Since there is some evidence for multiple domestications and no evidence whatsoever against it what I said was perfectly correct.

Pompous nonsense.

Evidence suggesting preadaptation to domestication throughout the small Felidae
CHARLOTTE CAMERON-BEAUMONT, SARAH E. LOWE and JOHN W. S. BRADSHAW*

One obstacle in the development of a coherent theoretical framework for the process of animal domestication is the rarity of domestication events in human history. It is unclear whether: (1) many species are suitable for domestication, the limiting factor being the requirement of people for new domestic animals; or (2) very few species are preadapted for domestication. Comparisons between 16 species and subspecies of small cats (Felidae) kept in zoos indicated that affiliative behaviour towards people, an important preadaptation to domestication, is widely, if patchily, distributed throughout this taxon, and is not concentrated in species closely related to the domestic cat, Felis silvestris catus. The highest proportion of individuals showing affiliative behaviour was found in the ocelot lineage, which is estimated to have diverged from the rest of the Felidae between 5 and 13 Mya. The domestication of F. silvestris alone among felids is therefore likely to have been the result of a specific set of human cultural events and requirements in the Egyptian New Kingdom, rather than the consequence of a unique tendency to tameness in this subspecies.

[Desmostylus]

Full paper here. (warning, .PDF) Another quote:

The single domestication event within the Felidae, apart from these modern hybrids, might suggest that this group is behaviourally poorly preadapted for domestication. This study, however, suggests that this is not the case. Overall, the distribution of the tendency to tameness among the small felids points to a localized human need as being the primary reason for the domestication of F. s. libyca, rather than any special features of its behavioural biology.

[Reeder]

Damn it people. Cats are not domesticated.

Unless you handle the kitten early.

You can’t just grab a cat and say catch mice for me.

They aren’t dogs you know.

They have a life outside of the pack.

[moriah]

What exactly is the strength of the tendency of cats to be social and or pack animals?

I’ve seen both domesticated and feral cats very determined to be independent, sole predators; and others to be be very social, living in a pack.

So, are they social animals in the wild or not?

---

WRT problems with cats bred big: Very large dogs can be very dangerous. But the pack instincts of wolves has bred in the restraint from using full power with biting and pushing other members of the pack.

While I’ve seen cats pull their punches, especially at play with kittens or as kittens; they tend not to pull their punches with adult peers. And even their pulled punches can leave white tiger trainers in the hospital for months.

Peace.

[DrDeth]

@asterion

Fair enough, but why not breed them that way? We’ve been able to breed dogs from very large to very small, but house cats are all generally the same size. Is there just a lack of interest on our part, or do cats not have the same ease of genetic manipulation that dogs do?

There’s the Savannah cat, which is quite a bit larger than a normal housecat.

http://www.hdw-inc.com/savannahwhatis.htm

warning- some mild bongo-drum sound track.

[CrazyCatLady]

Moriah, some species have a strong social structure, like lions. Other species are pretty much loners. I believe most of the leopard species are like that.

To elaborate on what others have said about safety issues–cats are stronger than a lot of people realize. Pound for pound, cats are way, way stronger than dogs. Judging from the animals I’ve restrained, a 10# cat is about as strong as a 40# dog. Cheetahs and stuff are over a 100#…you do the math.

[Eleusis]

@Reeder

Damn it people. Cats are not domesticated.

Unless you handle the kitten early.

You can’t just grab a cat and say catch mice for me.

They aren’t dogs you know.

They have a life outside of the pack.

We know this, and I agree with you.

But they’re a hell of a lot more domesticated than prarie dogs, skunks, racoons, beavers, or wolverines.

[Capt_B.Phart]

@CrazyCatLady

To elaborate on what others have said about safety issues–cats are stronger than a lot of people realize. Pound for pound, cats are way, way stronger than dogs.

Cats also have a short jaw - optimised for a stronger bite. Pit-bulls are the dogs that come closest - having been bred to have exactly that characteristic.

Those new large hybrids look cute - but think of a Pit-bull with sharper claws, no dumb doggie obedience and who likes to go totally ape-shit at least once a month.

At one point I always seemed to have scratches on my hands - either from working on my old car or from playing with the cat, I’m not sure I relish the idea of trying get something larger into the carrier to take to the vet

[ftg]

I’d just like to mention one big complication that relates to all the topics under discussion here: cats have a very small DNA pool. There just isn’t much genetic variation from individual to individual or breed to breed. (This also is the case in many large cats, e.g., cheetahs.)

So unlike dogs, there aren’t a lot of odd genes that occassionally pop out that makes a breeder go “Oh, look at the color/size/shape of that kitten, let’s breed it!” So there are no chihuahuas-to-great dane variations in cats.

This also plays a role in domestication. Dogs were domesticated thanks to a small number of genetic traits that made them easier to deal with. Some people think this has to do with puppy traits being held over into adulthood. Since cats lack the same degree of variation, selecting for such traits is significantly harder.

[Boldface_Type]

@ftg

So unlike dogs, there aren’t a lot of odd genes that occassionally pop out that makes a breeder go “Oh, look at the color/size/shape of that kitten, let’s breed it!” So there are no chihuahuas-to-great dane variations in cats.

The lack of size variation is an obvious difference as compared with dogs. However IIRC (and I have no cite), people have attempted to breed supersize cats, but have not succeeded, suggesting that cats are not amenable to this type of breeding. Got a feeling this is mentioned in Budiansky’s book.

There are plenty of other variations though, flat faces (persians), funny ears (curls), hairlessness, short legs, no tail,…

This also plays a role in domestication. Dogs were domesticated thanks to a small number of genetic traits that made them easier to deal with. Some people think this has to do with puppy traits being held over into adulthood. Since cats lack the same degree of variation, selecting for such traits is significantly harder.

I don’t entirely buy this - cats are successfully bred for temperament.

[Mirasawa]

Also as for why no large cats as pets, they would have to be kept outdoors and would be able to climb over walls to eat the neighbors.

Hmmm. Maybe I should get one.
_
_

[Colibri]

@Blake

No Colibri I overstated nothing. All the evidence that anyone has been able to provide supports what I said. ALL of it. When you present even one shred of evidence that cats weren’t domesticated multiple times then I will retract my claim that most of the evidence says multiple domestications. Since there is some evidence for multiple domestications and no evidence whatsoever against it what I said was perfectly correct.

In this instance at least Colibri the only one overstating anything is yourself.

Rubbish. As you often do, you state that there is an abundance of information to back up something you said, and then fail to produce it. You’ve provided one cite that suggests (not demonstrates) multiple domestications – the cats included in burials could have been commensals, or even pets, not true domesticated animals.

You also don’t seem to understand Occam’s Razor, or for that matter basic scientific principles. The simplest explanation is that there was a single domestication event. Unless evidence can be provided that in fact there were multiple events, it’s unnecessary to postulate them. A statement like “When you present even one shred of evidence that cats weren’t domesticated multiple times then I will retract my claim that most of the evidence says multiple domestications” is simply nonsensical.

We know cats were domesticated at least once. I’m willing to entertain the possibility that they were domesticated more than once. However, I am not aware of any definite evidence to support this. You claim that there is lots of evidence for it. If so, please produce it.

Nor did I suggest they did. You are once again being deliberately obtuse as you so often are. Wild cheetahs were caught and sold as hunting animals, They commanded quote a high price. Whether they could be fed or otherwise is quite irrelevant. Because they could hunt people were willing to pay for them. There was no expense in producing cheetahs, it was profitable enterprise. Anyone who could have domesticated cheetahs in the sens eof breeding them in captivity for use in hunting would have made quite a tidy profit. How can you possibly claim that such a domestication is an expense?

Cite, please?

[Bob55]

*Why no domesticated medium-sized cats? *

I often wonder if I would get away with as much playing as I do with my cats if they were 10X bigger. I wouldn’t tell them what to do, that’s for sure.