“You’re a liar” means that you habitually tell lies. It’s an insult to your character.
“You’re lying” means that you are lying now, though allows that this may be out of character, thus a grey area (but one best avoided anyway).
“Your statement is a lie” means that your statement is a falsehood being intentionally disseminated - but not necessarily by you. For instance, if I hear someone say that vaccines cause Autism, and I trustingly repeat that statement, my statement can correctly be called a lie, in that there are people who know it to be untrue who are nonetheless saying it. But I am not lying, per se, because I am ostensibly unaware that the statement is untrue. Therefore, not an insult.
You say exactly that: “You have posted this falsehood again and again, and I have refuted it [thusly] again and again.” If that doesn’t work, you give up and go to bed.
No, not only liars tell lies. Person A tells person B a lie. Person B believes it and states it to person C. The statement is a lie but person B isn’t lying, he’s just misinformed.
I don’t see where “you’re lying” isn’t calling the person a liar though.
But I wouldn’t call person B’s statement (as given by B) a lie, I would call it an error, or some such.
My old dictionary [RandomHouse College Dictionary] has 8 definitions of “lie” (apart from the use of the word as in “to lie [lay] down/prostrate”), and all include the distiction of a “knowing” or “deliberate” intent on the part of the speaker to mislead or misrepresent.
I should note for the record that although I just explained how “Your statement is a lie” is not an insult, it is, according to GD rules:
[QUOTE=MEBuckner]
However, questioning the intent of another poster in making an arguably false statement–e.g., “You are a liar”, “You are lying”, “That is a lie”, “That’s not true and you darned well know it isn’t true”–is crossing the line into attacking the other poster rather than attacking the other poster’s arguments, and will be considered a violation of the rules of the forum.
[/QUOTE]
[emphasis mine]
It does seem that the point is whether the poster is claimed to be intentionally repeating the lie or not (“…and you darned well know it isn’t true”), so you could conceivably get away with something like “I’m sure you’re unaware, but your statement is a lie, spread by malicious and nefarious characters,” but as CitizenPained is aiming to get fewer warnings, I wouldn’t recommend she try it.
The statement, as originally posted was a lie. The reason person b isn’t lying is because the statement didn’t originate with them but I don’t think that the statement deserves a name change. It’s still a lie and the person hearing it deserves to know it because calling the statement itself an error or even a misunderstanding gives it a shred of possible gray area that stating truthfully that it’s a lie does not.
I could see “That is a lie started by Congressman X” get a pass. I could see “That is a lie started by Congressman X, and I pointed that out to you a month ago” get a pass. But a plain old “That is a lie” falling short of the politeness test, IMO.
Okay, against my better judgement, I just used up about two hours of my only day off reading that thread, and here is the most relevant thing I can find to say:
I have to disagree. The first one is clearly labeled as a mod note; only the second is labeled as a warning.
The first has the force of a directive or instruction (for all that he uses the word “warning” in his phraseology. The second one is the one that goes into your file under “Warnings,” and in the event that you are ever banned with an ATMB thread outlining the justifications, the second one is the one that will be cited.
Mods, I’ll happily accept instruction if I’m mistaken about this.
CP, please let me know if I missed some other officially-labeled “warning” that you were issued.
I think that using the words “this is a formal warning not to do that again” surely would sound like a warning to someone who’s only been here a couple of months and may not know the system that well.
“You’re a liar.” breaks the rules in the GD subforum. “That is a lie.” is an equivelant statement to me.
But, I am not a mod (nor do I have the temperment to be one). If a mod states that “That is a lie” is attacking the post and not the poster, so be it. They are the ones wearing the jackboots.
The first one is labeled “Moderating,” not “Mod Note.” Both posts are notifications that Citizen Pained had received an official warning for her behavior. When someone is warned, the board software automatically sends them a PM informing them that they’ve received a warning, so even if its unclear to a third party (and I think the line mentioned by Disgruntled Penguin makes it clear that the first post was an official warning) its generally much less ambiguous to the person being warned.
Actually, re-reading the several posts, I apologize for not making my point clearer.
The question regarding accusations of lying in GD comes up from time to time and I simply used the fact that it had come up again as an excuse to discuss the general rule. I was not really responding to a specific point made or asked in this thread.
= = =
Regarding “you’re backpedalling” and similar constructions, I would not generally be inclined to issue a Warning for them on the grounds that an accusation that one is changing one’s position is not the same as an accusation that one deliberately posted false information. (Of course, if phrased in such a way as to appear to be an accusation of lying, it would probably get a Mod Note at the least.)
I am generally tolerant of the claim that “that statement is a lie” PROVIDED that the statement is a quote from an off-board source and the accusation of lying is quite careful to indicate that the original source was lying, not the poster. If one thinks that it might not be clear who is going to be perceived as the liar, it is better to find a different way to make the accusation.
= = =
Regarding the separate question of how to respond to a poster who continually posts incorrect information, one is perfectly free to state, “that is [still] not correct” on each occasion that they make their point.
If one is in desperate need to point out that the poster is lying, we have The BBQ Pit to serve that purpose.
= = =
As to the more general claim that “a person who tells a lie is a liar,” I would tend to disagree, but not enough to keep this thread alive for another dozen exchanges.
To me, a liar is one who habitually lies or whose approach to speaking results in frequent lies. Pretty nearly everyone lies at some point, (even if only to refrain from telling one’s spouse how their latest hair style makes them really look). When I use (or hear) the word liar, I think of a person who generally cannot be trusted due to the number of lies he or she tells.
