From this thread: Why do they shoot horses?, I wonder why there are restrictions on the parentage of race horces. I could understand restricting cloned horses until the technology more reliable. But why should articifial insemination be out? Why can’t a horse from another lineage be allowed to race?
(Not sure if this belongs in GQ or GD.)
Just a small correction. Thoroughbreds are the only ones allowed to race in certain types of races. There is also an active quarterhorse racing scene and some for other breeds as well. Thoroughbreds tend to be among the fastest of horses so their races are popular and, like other kinds of racing, convention dictates that the racers be grouped by type.
[QUOTE=Pleonast]
But why should articifial insemination be out? Why can’t a horse from another lineage be allowed to race?
[/QUOTE]
Even though quarterhorses were/are bred to be able to outsprint cattle, it wouldn’t be much of a race; their specialty is agility, not straight-ahead speed. No other breed of horses is even close to fast enough to keep up with thoroughbreds in races of the length that the races are at regular racetracks. Thoroughbreds are the sprinters among horses.
Remember that there are also (“harness”) races at racetracks for “trotters”. Those are the standardbred horses, even though some of them pace rather than trot.
I’m not sure which of the breeds of horses would be the best marathoners, but I suspect that quarterhorses would be somewhere on the list. People sometimes crossbreed quarterhorse mares to thoroughbred studs. I’m not sure why; I just know it’s done sometimes. Of course, the offspring couldn’t be registered in either breed (“studbook”).
There are some Dopers who know a lot about horses. One of them will probably be along to explain it all. Just wait a bit. 
Arabians are probably the breed best for distances. They seem to dominate the endurance races.
I seen to recall that the thoroughbred registry started to protect the betters. Without careful tracking of pedigrees, owners could claim whatever they wanted to about a horse’s lineage and manipulate the betting public (before a horse established a race record of his own). I imagine that without careful records and registration, you could also cheat other breeders or purchasers (by fraudulantly claiming your horse came from some top line).
Live cover was originally required to protect against fraud. You can easily see if they walk Sam the plow horse out to cover your mare rather than Secretariat. However, it’s a bit harder to tell where a vial of semen comes from.
These days (with genetic testing), the fraud argument isn’t the main one against AI (at least not when I’ve seen it debated on horse board). The main argument (at least the one that makes the most sense to me) is that live cover helps keep genetic diversity in the breed.
A stallion can only cover so many mares but he can impregnate a lot more through AI. Also, it’s risky and expensive to ship and board and mare far away, so a mare owner may decide to go with a nearby stallion even if he’s not the first choice. With AI, you could see more and more mares bred to fewer and fewer stallions.
Every now and then, you’ll see discussions about allowing crosses with arabians or other breeds in order to improve the existing genetic diversity of the TB stock or to improve things like hoof condition or bone density.
[QUOTE=tygerbryght]
People sometimes crossbreed quarterhorse mares to thoroughbred studs. I’m not sure why; I just know it’s done sometimes.
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Polo ponies. Fast and very manuverable.
if you put it in dog terms, the tb is the greyhound/whippet of the horses. the newfoundlander the clydesdale. greyhound much faster and much more delicate than the newfie, you give up heft for speed. clydesdales racing would just be very, very, scary. you could liken a good cutting horse to a border collie.
arabians are the marathoners. they are fast and steady but man, they just go forever. their legs are on the delicate side as well.
leg problems are very common amoung the tbs. you do have to be very careful of the bloodline. having live cover does help to keep the problems that inbreeding brings down a bit. it also helps that travel is easier for horses now. if your horse is a good flyer (on a plane) you can get some nice diversity.
[QUOTE=Pleonast]
From this thread: Why do they shoot horses?, I wonder why there are restrictions on the parentage of race horces. I could understand restricting cloned horses until the technology more reliable. But why should articifial insemination be out? Why can’t a horse from another lineage be allowed to race?
(Not sure if this belongs in GQ or GD.)
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To put it bluntly, plainly and a bit on the simple side:
It’s the law!
No No it’s the rules. Blood ancestery, pedigree, etc. no mutts allowed and all that hi faluttoon stuffit.
IOW If you aren’t on the inside you’re outside.
The insiders make and enforce the rules and change them when, as, and if they deem changes necessary.
[QUOTE=Pleonast]
From this thread: Why do they shoot horses?, I wonder why there are restrictions on the parentage of race horces. I could understand restricting cloned horses until the technology more reliable. But why should articifial insemination be out? Why can’t a horse from another lineage be allowed to race?
[/QUOTE]
Because if they aren’t thoroughbreds (descendents of the Godolphin Arabian, the Darley Arabian or the Byerly Turk). The owners of these horses run the tracks and determine who can race.
For a more practical reason, it’s unlikely other horses could keep up with true thoroughbreds for the distances of the races. Quarter horses are faster over distances up to a quarter of a mile or so, but thoroughbred races start as six furlongs – 3/4 of a mile – at a major track (some minor tracks do go down to four furlongs). Quarter horses would run out of steam long before the finish line.
Standardbreds – trotters and pacers – have the same sort of breeding lines. They do not gallop, but either trot or pace, so couldn’t challenge a thoroughbred. Pacers (whose left and right sides move in tandem: right front and right rear hoofs both move forward at the same time) are far more common than trotters (whose diagonal legs move in tandem: right front with left rear). This is mainly because it’s easier to keep a pacer on gait – hobbles – straps – are used to keep the legs moving together. Trotters can get off gait more easily, which means they have to be pulled up until they get back. Bettors don’t like that happening.
As for the ban on artificial insemination, that’s to make sure the horses are indeed thoroughbreds. It also prevents fraud. If your farm has a valuable stud horse, and several so-so horses, the temptation would be to use the sperm from one of the weaker horses and charge top rates for it. Then there would have to be DNA testing to make sure the foal is indeed what it is supposed to be (and prior to DNA testing, it would have been a big mess). If you see the horse that’s inseminating your mare, it’s a simple matter to confirm it’s the horse you paid for (all thoroughbreds have an ID number tattooed on their upper lip, so it’s easy to check).
Do thoroughbreds have to be 100% thoroughbred? Ie, must they have 16 out of 16 or 64 out of 64 ancestors TBs with papers?
I’m wondering if you crossed in an Arabian (or whatever), but then kept breeding only with TBs, would the grandchild or greatgrandchild count as TB?
There are sanctioned horse races for several breeds, actually.
Thoroughbreds
Quarter Horses
Paints
Appaloosas
Arabians
Standardbreds (Harness)
There may be more, but these I know for SURE.
Hi all,
I just wanted to second that Quarter Horses are actually faster than thoroughbreds- they just have less staying power. The name “Quarter Horse” comes from them being the fastest equine for 1/4 of a mile- past that you are better off using them as a cow pony :). Also- the quarter horse registry has a long tradition of inter-breeding with thoroughbreds- those foals are registered as “Appendix” Quarter Horses and you will see alot of those in racing and also English type events. They would not be used to add endurance but only speed and agility. Arabians are your best bet for endurance.
Just a note on the artificial insemination thing–it is my understanding that artificial insemination is permitted for StandardBred horses.
[QUOTE=MaryEFoo]
Do thoroughbreds have to be 100% thoroughbred? Ie, must they have 16 out of 16 or 64 out of 64 ancestors TBs with papers?
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A thoroughbred must be the child of two thoroughbreds. It’s a circular definition!
[QUOTE=RealityChuck]
Because if they aren’t thoroughbreds (descendents of the Godolphin Arabian, the Darley Arabian or the Byerly Turk).
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So it’s true, then – all TBs are descended from three horses?
What kind of horses are used in steeplechase or other jumps/turf races?
Thanks for the replies.
The fact that thoroughbreds are the fastest seems a poor excuse to prevent outbreeding. If they truly are the fastest, that will be made clear on the track. No need to have rules against it.
As for keeping pedigrees to prevent fraud, that’s a separate issue from who’s allowed to race. PapSett, are there any open races where horses of any (or no) breed are allowed to race?
[QUOTE=Huerta88]
So it’s true, then – all TBs are descended from three horses?
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Yes
Steeplechase horses are thoroughbreds – they run steeplechases at thoroughbred tracks; they’re not popular because the jumps make it hard to handicap. This site discusses steeplechase sires and shows the same three (it’s a great site about thoroughbred bloodlines).
Turf races are for thoroughbreds who like to run on grass. Some horses just prefer turf to dirt.
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[QUOTE=Pleonast]
PapSett, are there any open races where horses of any (or no) breed are allowed to race?
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This I’m not sure about. I know endurance races, which are anywhere from 25 to 100 miles ion length are open to any breed , or no breed as it were. But the best endurance horses are, as stated before , Arabians or part Arabs. Anglo Arabs, which are a Thoroughbred/Arab cross also do very well.
I have old pictures in a book, from the 40’s or 50’s, of open Stock Horse races, where Quarter Horses, Paints and Appies competed together. I don’t know if these races are still held or not.
Wish I had a better answer.
[QUOTE=Huerta88]
So it’s true, then – all TBs are descended from three horses?
[/QUOTE]
No quite. All from those 3 stallions. But many different mares were used on the female side of the pedigree.
See http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/secretariat for a typical pedigree of a very non-typical horse!
[QUOTE=Pleonast]
Thanks for the replies.
The fact that thoroughbreds are the fastest seems a poor excuse to prevent outbreeding. If they truly are the fastest, that will be made clear on the track. No need to have rules against it.
As for keeping pedigrees to prevent fraud, that’s a separate issue from who’s allowed to race. PapSett, are there any open races where horses of any (or no) breed are allowed to race?
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When I moved to Kentucky, I realized when I traveled that living in Kentucky I was expected to know these things. So I did some research. Sources argue the small points, but basically it comes down to this.
The first recorded race of mounted riders goes back to 642 BC, the Olympic Games. As the sport became more popular, people started tracking which bloodlines and crosses produced the best horses. Fast forward to 1791. Looking back on 100 years worth of records in England, it was found that three sires had produced by far the best horses of the period, the ideal in speed and stamina. It was decided that it would be best for racing, and improving the thoroughbred that only these three lines be used. Only descendents of these three sires would be registered in the British General Stud Book, which is now the foundation for all country’s Thoroughbred Stud Books. The word thoroughbred didn’t come along for some time, but that is a very brief explanation of how it came to be. The idea was to produce the best horses by using superior lines.
Now the entire sport’s economics is tied to those lines. Any major changes would collapse the industry. Live cover ensures a limited number of foals produced each year from in demand stallions. In North America, Storm Cat leads the way as a sire; his published fee is $500,000 a foal. Other top horses are Giant’s Causeway ( a son of Storm Cat) at $300,000, A.P. Indy, at $300,000, Dynaformer, ( Barbaro’s sire) at $100,000. Stallions can produce around 100 foals a season. The top stallions are often “shuttled” to the other side of the world so they can breed during what would be the off season in one hemisphere. Some stud farms will limit the number of covers, to try to keep the value of sire high for the sales by not having too many of them for sale each year.
If artificial insemination was allowed, and a horse like Barbaro could have limitless children, so they wouldn’t be worth much. Supply and demand. Right now what fuels racing is the dream of producing a Barbaro. A horse who wins the Kentucky Derby is pretty much assured a very high stud fee. A horse that wins the Triple Crown, which many expected Barbaro to do this year, would be worth…..well, possibly a $100,000 stud fee to start the first few years. Work both hemispheres and cover 200 mares, and then do that for 20 years. Now were talking serious money! Of course if his kids don’t do well at the track, the fee comes down. If they do well at the track, and then do well in the shed, then the fee goes up.
So really the few millions a great horse might make while racing, is small compared to what he could bring as a stallion. For small time owners and breeders like me, our goal is to just break even. Most horses don’t even cover their own expenses. We hope the few that do make money will pay for all the ones that don’t. We stay in the game because of the dream of producing the next great horse. Buying a thoroughbred is a terrible investment; odds are you will lose money. But the thrill of competition, the beauty of horses, the love of traditions and history keeps us involved while dreaming of the next great horse.
So the registering of thoroughbreds may have started as a way to improve the breed, but now it is what keeps the industry alive. Without the possibility of huge stud fees for great horses, there were be a lot fewer people in the game. Fewer people “investing” would mean fewer horses running and huge decline in the sport as we know it. And the people who are now benefiting from this system will do whatever they can to protect the system. And artificial insemination, cloning, etc, would change all that, and I don’t see that being allowed to happen any time soon.
Excellent overview, Grits and Hard Toast! A few questions for you.
Since some farms limit access to their studs, would this practice become more common if AI was allowed? It seems like supply and demand would limit how much a single stud would be used.
You’ve explained AI and pedigrees well, but that doesn’t directly answer why there’s apparently no unrestricted-breed races. Do you have any insight into that? A proven fast horse could have huge stud fees, no matter his ancestry (assuming open races existed).