Marginalizing them means that fairly few of the major players would believe that they and what they think or do matters very much.
How to do it is what I’ve been (obviously somewhat inarticulately) trying to express across several posts.
Their actions cannot be allowed to result in any more than a very small number of civilian deaths, either from their rockets or from a provoked Israeli response. Civilian deaths, either side, helps raise their significance. It makes them matter. That means some international enforcement on the Gazan side of the fence and a real restraint on the Israeli side.
A cease fire must leave Hamas no longer in charge of their side of the border crossings in Gaza. Ideally the PA is put in place at the crossings, but another party (UN, pan-Arab, whatever) could do.
The circumstances have to exist in which various Arab governments that want them brought down (and who would at this point benefit from a peace deal and the dialing down of the Islamist and Iranian threats to their power that such a deal would help deliver) can speak out against them. And then those governments need some encouragement to do so.
The more moderate approach has to be shown to be delivering significant and tangible benefits. And fast.
In other words the situation needs to be created in which any attacks they attempt (if any) are impotent enough to be ignored or at most dealt with by a few small counterstrikes akin to fly-swatting (can’t get rid of flies either) and in which negotiation and compromise is leading to significant gains.
Well, that might be a good idea, but the PA has already failed. And are you aware of any plan that would involve a third party policing Gaza? Who would want to send troops in such a quagmire? And whose troops who be acceptable for the Gazans? Would even Israel find this option palatable?
And of course Hamas would accept an equitable and just solution :rolleyes:
It’s fun to skim other message boards. On the Toronto Star - a very big paper with a wide, multicultural leadership - readers are actually saying “Well, the solution here is for all the Jews to leave Israel. How dare they stay there.” How just and equitable that would be.
All we need now is for China to say “Hey, we don’t support either side, and we are tired of your squabbling affecting our ability to make money. Sort your act out, or we are going to level the place!”. That’d cheer up all the Apocalypse lovers no end.
Okay, “Stamp our feet and get extremely annoyed!” then. You know what I mean. Exert pressure. Or is it not in their realm of political interest? Why are we hearing nothing from their viewpoint here in the west? Any Chinese Dopers around? What do you think of this religion based feud?
That’s not an example. AFAIK, that’s the first time they send military ships away from waters neighbouring China.
I’ve read that it’s suspected to be a test of the capacities of new frigates, on the basis that the vessels sent are way above the requirements for such an operation.
And also that it’s the first sign of the interest China would now have in developing a high waters (???) fleet. They would envision building a carrier too.
Nah - China has a healthy trade relationship with Israel and none whatsoever with the Palestinians. So long as the Gulf states don’t threaten an oil embargo (in which cas we’ll see sum MAJOR foot stamping), I don’t see why China would feel any need to get involved.
Err, what? I was responding to whether the Chinese Navy had ships capable of going further than Taiwan. Are you objecting that Somalia is not further than Taiwan, or that they were not Chinese ships?
I was just engaging in a bit of harmless hyperbole concerning the fact that China, while possessing an immense military, has little to no force projection capabilities on a global scale. I’m sorry if you took me literally.
Hamas, the ruthless, murderous haters of the west and jooz, have been targeting civilians, for however long now, and they have killed…erm, not many people, and caused a lot of heartbreak and unease to the Israeli’s.
Israel, on the other hand, supposed to be the restrained, peace-loving democracy, has only been targeting military positions, and trying not to kill civilians, for one week or so, and they have killed, wounded and destroyed the lives of how many?
Now who are the cruel, heartless bastards, again?
Either Hamas are trying their hardest, and showing their incompetence, or they are deliberately being crap and sucking Israel into a war they cannot win.
So, should I support Israel, and reinforce their victim status, or stick up for the underdog?
At the moment China is keeping its head down and focusing on economic growth but in 10-15 years it could get interesting. I believe China will become more aggressive in staking out what it sees as its rightful place in the world. The ME will likely remain a strategic region and an obvious place to demonstrate its greater power.
Meddling in the Arab-Israeli dispute could have several attractions for a newly aggressive China. If it leans towards the Arabs it could be a way for China to poke the US in the eyes and show that it must be taken seriously. It could be a way of wooing Arab public opinion which is gradually becoming more powerful. And it could be a way of throwing a bone to its surprisingly large Muslim minority.
The above is one of the reasons why I think Israel has a 10 year horizon in which to settle the Palestinian issue before the strategic environment becomes increasingly hostile. In practical terms that means the Obama presidency which will likely last for 8 years. Obama is quite pro-Israel but also someone who commands genuine global respect including in the Arab world. I don’t think Israel will get another such opportunity for a long time.
In 3000 years of history, China has never shown the least interest in the politics of countries it doesn’t directly border. I don’t see why they’d start now.
Besides, a lot could happen in 10 years. Could you have predicted the current statusof the U.S., vis-a-vis the Middle East, in 1999? That’s not to say we shouldn’t tray and prepare for all probable futures, it just means we shouldn’t fixate on just one of them - because reality won’t be what we expect.
I doubt your average Uighur cares more about Israel than about what the Chinese are doing to them.
In contrast, while China’s relations with Israel used to be quite bad on account of ideological support by China of the Muslim world, this is not the case these days - China has very good relations with Israel (too good for the liking of some in the US):
To my mind, what is happening is the following: China had stances dictated by its attempt to jump to the head of the line in leading the Communist World. That is something it could not care less about these days. Now, it cares more for fending off Muslim seperatism and for high-tech goodies - both of which incline it towards Israel.
The notion that China will resume its former role has little to recommend it - times have changed. It could happen of course but current trends are against it.
I’d like to posit a question to the hardcore supporters of the war here: Is there any conceivable atrocity or act that, if done by Israel in this conflict, that would make you question your support?