Damas y Caballeros. Ladies and Gentlemen.
Yo morirme
Tu morirte
El morirse
Nosotros morirnos
Ustedes morirse
Ellos morirse
Tu Jane, yo Tarzan.
I will add that the placing the particle in front or after the verb is a matter of usage which has changed over time and geography.
Whereas Spaniards today would say “acabarse” some centuries ago "se acabar was more common
As I already mentioned while Castilians today would say “se murió” (clearly showing the verb is morir) , Asturianos would say “murióse”.
Castilians would say “le dije” whereas Asturianos and old Spanish would say “díjele”.
There is no way those particles would ever be considered part of the verb.
Yo amarte mucho.
Como la trucha al trucho.
I would add regarding the RAE that, while I consider it an authority, I do not give them the ultimate word. For many years I maintained against the RAE that LL was two letters as was CH. Finally they changed their stance. My position is not that I was wrong then and right now. My position is that they were wrong then and right now. But, of course, it is all a matter of opinion. There is no ultimate authority. At least I do not recognize one.
Look at the link. The example in item 7 uses morirse.
Sapo, you know perfectly well that todos nos morimos antes o después. In reflexive verbs/usage the pronoun generally goes before the verb.
You guys don’t like Spanish grammar and usage, fine. But sorry, last I looked the RAE was the authority, not you. Claiming that the use of “morirse” is incorrect is like claiming that the use of “-ico” as a diminutive ending is incorrect: it may make you feel very macho but also look very dumb. I do expect better of you two, and please stop making me feel like I’m back in one of the 20-boys birthday parties to which my brothers got invited, running after idiotic boys who think that jumping into an empty pool is a jolly good idea.
No, I am not saying it is not used. Of course it is used. What I am saying is that morir and morirse are not two different verbs but that morirse is morir with the reflexive particle “se” added. Just like matar and matarle are not different verbs either.
Look, go to the RAE http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/ and introduce “morirse” and this is what you get:
At least that’s what I get.
The very fact that you find “morirse” under “morir” is proof that the RAE agrees with me and not with you. They do not consider it a separate verb. And since you consider them the ultimate authority I guess this matter is settled.
You didn’t make yourself clear – you appeared to be saying that “morirse” doesn’t exist. I think everyone knows that “morirse” is a compound of “morir” and the clitic “-se,” and not some sort of hypothetical separate word.
There was no need for you either to split that particular hair, or to be so rude over it.
Since I was responding to
which clearly implied morir and morirse are different verbs and since I said
Notice I said “verb” not “word”.
and also
I thought I was clear. Maybe you need to read more carefully. Or maybe I need to write more carefully. At any rate, you do know I am a native Spaniard? How would it be possible for me not to know the word “morirse”?
Balthisar, I am sorry if my post came across as offensive as it was not meant that way. I just found it funny. Please don’t take offense.
That is why everyone (including Nava, who is also a native Spaniard) was so amazed by what you had to say.
Was that supposed to be philosophical or just linguistic?
I didn’t mean to be mean. Someone asked how to conjugate “morirse” and that’s what came to mind. I found it funny and posted. Of course “morirse” exists. I don’t know what it is called, since I am not much of a linguist, but it most certainly exists and it is widely used in most Spanish speaking countries I know of. And of course it would be: me muero, te mueres, se muere, nos morimos, se mueren (vos moris), se mueren.
I think post #49 shows quite clearly that what was actually said and what was said and what I was denying is that morir and morirse were somehow different verbs. And that I never denied morirse existed as a word. I think that would be clear to anyone with average reading comprehenssion who was paying attention.
Since we all agree that morirse does not exist as a verb separate from morir I believe it is not fruitful to continue discussing who has better reading comprehenssion, who is backpedalling etc. Let us just agree that morirse does not exist as a verb separate from morir and leave it at that.
(sailor, you’re not being harsh; probably just not understanding what I mean. I’m using your quote for reference, but I’m not referring specifically to you below.)
I think the real argument here isn’t whether morir and morirse are separate words, but what’s the definition of a separate verb.
What are you calling “separate verbs”? They’re separate in the sense that they have subtle differences in meaning. In English it would be akin to comparing “look” and “look for,” or say in German “kommen” and “mitkommen.”
In German, of course, you’ll see both of those words as main headings in the dictionary. In English dictionaries, you don’t find prepositional verbs (or phrasal verbs, as you will), but will find them under the main heading of the verb. This is because they’re different verbs, with their own meanings and uses. My Spanish dictionaries follow this same concept. Main verb – say, morir – with a definition of the shade of meaning of morirse, under the main verb. Same thing as in English: different verbs. Different use. Different meanings. Ergo, separate verbs, most definitely.
How would I conjugate such a verb? Same as any other, only I’d be using the correct verb instead of a semi-correct verb. Take a simpler word: hablarse vs. hablar. I want to say something like, “They spoke with each other.” I could be awkward and try “Hablaron entre si [or ellos]”, or more simply use the related verb: “Se hablaron.”
“Ellos hablaron” would work just as well as “Ellos se hablaron”. Ditto for “El murio” and “El se murio”.
[wading out of my depth]
It is different for transitive verbs, where the reflexive is different and indicates the action is being done on oneself.
“El peina” is not the same as “El se peina”
[/wading out of my depth]
As I said, it is a free country, or so they say, and each one is entitled to his own opinion and definition and it is all well as long as we understand each other.
In my opinion, decir, decirlo, decirse, decirselo, are not different verbs like matar, matarla, matarse, matarsela, matartelo are not different verbs. And the RAE agrees with me. That is all I am saying. They are not generally considered different verbs.
Having said that, I am also saying that it may be sometimes appropriate for the purposes of discussion to use other definitions than those generally accepted for necessary distinction and that is all well as long as everybody is clear on the meanings being used and that they are used consistently.
I have also said that while I consider the RAE an authority, I do not consider them to be the only or ultimate authority and I believe they were wrong when they said LL was one letter but this is like the law, one can believe the law is wrong but it is still the law. I reserve the right to disagree with the RAE even if in this case they agree with me.
One more question: If “hablamos español” means “Let’s speak Spanish”, then does “hablo español” mean “Let me speak Spanish”? Or does it apply only to the first person plural?
Hablamos Español = “We speak Spanish”
Hablemos Español = “Let’s speak Spanish”
Hablamos Español**?** = “Shall we speak Spanish?”
“hablo español” = “I speak spanish”
“habló en español” = “He/She spoke in Spanish”
“hablo en español?” = “Shall i speak in Spanish?”
Spanish is a complex language, I am thankful that i just had to learn english
What do you make, then, of the response to me in post #11?:
Again, for “Se Habla Espanol” the closest literal translation into English uses the passive voice, but the feeling in Spanish is much less passive/formal/beauracratic. I think ‘Hablamos Espanol’ would seem weird to native speakers, like saying “Let’s speak Spanish together” on a sign.
I can’t answer for Frodo or Quecus, but I understood the “like saying” there to mean “as for example”; the “let’s speak Spanish together” was an example of a form that would sound strange, although it’s close in meaning to the standard “Spanish spoken” that it could be understood. If I understood Quercus correctly, it wasn’t meant as a direct translation (I can see how it would be confusing, though).