Why such little publicity for the largest ethnic cleansing ever?

[SenorBeef]

To clarify, I just meant “That’s a long sentence.” as an aside when I realized that I had a huge run-on sentence. It’s not to meant to be substantive. Should’ve been more clear.

[Alessan]

I think I should quit this thread before I write something that costs me my posting privilieges.

[SenorBeef]

Your choice. I didn’t mean to respond in a harsh tone, as you weren’t the one that claimed that they “deserved it”.

I wasn’t drawing to draw paralells so much as point out the hypocrisy and double standard of looking at the deaths of millions of largely innocent people and say “they deserved it” - when, ironically, the reason you say “they deserved it” is based on your disgust with a situation in which millions of largely innocent people died.

There’s either a disgusting hypocrisy in there - disgusting in seemingly taking a certain amount of satisfaction in the death of millions - or ignorance of the situation at the time. I suppose if you think the average German knew about and advocated the Holocaust, then it might be reasonable to say “they deserved it”. But we’re not talking about SS camp guards dying in droves - we’re talking about people who were probably just trying to run a farm and feed their family, who were kept ignorant about the holocaust and general situation in a lot of ways, just trying to survive.

[Freddy_the_Pig]

SenorBeef, I think you’re missing the key point where the analogy between the Holocaust and the postwar persecution of Germans breaks down. The German nation had done something wrong. They launched a World War and the Holocaust. Now I certainly agree that it was wrong to hold every ethnic German responsible for this, and many innocent people, especially children, suffered as a result of the postwar cleansing. But collective responsibility was being assigned, albeit wrongly, for bona fide crimes against humanity.

European Jewry, in contrast, did nothing to provoke the Holocaust. Collective responsibility was being assigned for crimes which did not exist.

By drawing too facile a parallel between them, you make it sound as if both groups had done something wrong, and the only error was in the assignment of collective responsibility. I’m sure that’s not what you meant to say. But you need to make it clear that the only parallel lies in the group stigmatization, not in the assignment of collective responsibility for a legitimate wrong.

[Tee]

*Originally posted by jklann *
European Jewry, in contrast, did nothing to provoke the Holocaust. Collective responsibility was being assigned for crimes which did not exist.

Exactly. And since the OP mentions specifically Poland and Czechoslovakia, we know that a portion of the German citizenry in each had the uncanny foresight to run for the hills prior to the end of the war, without guns at their backs. Before I morally equate the two ‘crimes’ I’d like to know how many of the 13 million ‘deported’ were just ordinary farm families on land they’d held for centuries - or at least before 1939. Some were, I understand that. Not all.

[Siemsi]

THANK YOU, Daoloth and Quadtop.

My Oma und Ota were removed from Croatia (Babska-Novak region called something else now) and, ahem, if you did not fight for the Nazis in the war, they would find something to do with you… and your soon to be dead body. My Ota HAD TO fight with the Germans. Sorry, that is how it was back then.

It’s amazing that these atrocities have occured throughout the history of the world, yet we only seem to focus on one group that was slaughtered.

My grandparents are Donauschwaben as well. There is a book out there of the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans Tito was responsible for called “In the Claws of the Red Dragon.” FYI. Interesting point of view.

[Daoloth]

*Originally posted by Tee *
** I’d like to know how many of the 13 million ‘deported’ **

Are you implying they weren’t deported?

[Tee]

I’m not sure if they all were. I’m having trouble accepting “ethnic cleansing of 13 million Germans” without question, is more like it.

[Daoloth]

*Originally posted by Tee *
**I’m not sure if they all were. I’m having trouble accepting “ethnic cleansing of 13 million Germans” without question, is more like it. **

Okay…

Then consult Death by Government by RJ Rummel.

Or John Keegan’s The Second World War.

And then read A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950 by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas.

Here is a listing of sources on this.

[SenorBeef]

*Originally posted by jklann *
**
By drawing too facile a parallel between them, you make it sound as if both groups had done something wrong, and the only error was in the assignment of collective responsibility. I’m sure that’s not what you meant to say. But you need to make it clear that the only parallel lies in the group stigmatization, not in the assignment of collective responsibility for a legitimate wrong. **

Ah, I see.

Yes, you’re right. What I meant to point out was the process of collectively stigmatization is generally wrong, when unjustified applied, to anyone, and it’s hypocritical to have a double standard about it.

And though many Germans did commit genuine crimes against humanity, I’m guessing that most didn’t. Most of the people who joined the army in the war joined after it became a struggle for German survival, rather than a war for conquest. State propoganda kept people ignorant of the actual nature of war, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t a common perception that Germany was declaring aggressive wars - after all, even today, in a much more “enlightened” culture, we’ve got a fair bit of public support for a pre-emptive (aggressive) war - quite possibly with material benefits.

Anyway, to my knowledge, very few actually knew about the holocaust, and fewer actually participated in any way. The German leaders went to great lengths to hide the Holocaust from the common German, precisely because they knew that it wouldn’t be supported, because Germans aren’t inherently kitten-stompingly evil.

So, I understand your point about real wrongs commited, but condemning innocent people of the real wrongs of other people has basically the same moral value to me as condemning innocent people for the perceived wrongs of other people - either way, you’re stigmatizing innocents with something they haven’t done. And therein lies the hypocrisy - to hold one innocent guilty of ‘collective’ crimes, and one not, when neither actually did anything wrong.

Hope that clears things up.

[Tee]

*Originally posted by Daoloth *
**Okay…

Then consult Death by Government by RJ Rummel.

Or John Keegan’s The Second World War.

And then read A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950 by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas.

Here is a listing of sources on this. **

I had the worst time accessing this board today so I have a feeling this exchange is going to be brief…

Keegan is only referenced for death statistics on that page.

Keegan: 2,100,000 (This includes 600,000 from “elsewhere” not listed above; it does not include some 1,000,000 Germans who (by Keegan’s estimate) died fleeing while the war was still raging.)

I don’t know if he estimated the total number of Germans expelled from Eastern Europe. Other people did, which brings us to de Zayas ([book review](http://www.fff.org/freedom/0795f.aspbook review))

The result was that between 1945 and 1950, 11,730,000 Germans fled and were expelled from these eastern territories of Germany, Czechoslovakia, and other Eastern European countries; specifically, over 6.9 million from the eastern territories of Germany, more than 2.9 million Germans from Czechoslovakia, and more than 1.8 million from other parts of Eastern Europe. And besides the forced expulsion of these 11.7 million people, another 2.1 million died or “disappeared” during the expulsion process.

These are a reviewer’s own words, but clearly in the first sentence he claims “11.7 fled or expelled” and then in the last, “forced expulsion of these 11.7 M people.” The impression is that de Zayas considers fleeing and being expelled as the same thing, both equal forced deportation and/or ‘ethnic cleansing’. Guess I have to read his book to understand his methodology - and even then I might disagree with it.

[smiling_bandit]

Most likely, the majority of firearm deaths were committed against ex-Wehrmacht soldiers or those displaying resistance.

Not really. Only a small portion of ethnic Germans outside Germany joined the Nazis in any way, or even the Wehrmacht. And German soldiers did not survive unimprisoned to hanmg around to be evicted. Quite a lot of Germans were murdered if they did not flee quickly, by Russians, Poles, Czechs, et. all. Strangely enough, German soldiers invading the East usually found a cold reception by local ethnic Germans.

I’m not buying it. Don’t try to invent parallels that aren’t there.

Still trying to understand how anyone couldn’t see the similiarity.

I don’t think they deserved to die, but I do think the people who were previously ‘cleansed’ from the areas that were resettled by Germans had the right of return, and the right of forcing the settlers out.

No, the Nazi party never had a chance to institute its removal programs. The war took priority (actually, killing Jews, then the war.) Many people were killed by SS death squads, particularly in Poland, but german were not settled onto those lands.

These are a reviewer’s own words, but clearly in the first sentence he claims “11.7 fled or expelled” and then in the last, “forced expulsion of these 11.7 M people.” The impression is that de Zayas considers fleeing and being expelled as the same thing, both equal forced deportation and/or ‘ethnic cleansing’. Guess I have to read his book to understand his methodology - and even then I might disagree with it.

Thing is, they didn’t leave because they were “just” fleeing - they were scared off or “politely threatened” if they did not leave. They were fleeing from some real treat, although not always immediate. They were fortunate if they did avoid the violence after the War. But nevertheless, they were still force out by fear or violence.

All information taken from an awesome college course on the subject by Dr. Vejas Luilevicus, who wrote a book on a similar subject.

[Tee]

*Originally posted by smiling bandit *
**No, the Nazi party never had a chance to institute its removal programs. The war took priority (actually, killing Jews, then the war.) Many people were killed by SS death squads, particularly in Poland, but german were not settled onto those lands. **

Is that right. One wonders what all the annexation and Germanization of Poland was all about, then.

Various cites:

Poland: The Historical Setting – Shtetl – FRONTLINE

In the annexed provinces, the Polish language was banned from use in all public offices, and Polish towns were given Germanic names (such as Lodz, renamed Litzmannstadt). Universities and secondary schools were closed, and cultural activities were severely hampered. In the eastern Zamosc region, some 110,000 Poles were evacuated from villages and replaced with 25,000 German colonists.

http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/grhc/info/introduction/heimatbuch5.html

In the spring of 1944, our German villages began to be evacuated ahead of the approaching front. On two huge treks we were moved in a northwesterly, upriver direction along the Danube and resettled in the Warthegau, reaching the county of Wollstein southwest of Posen [today called Poznan]. Families on the trek traveled on via horse-drawn wagons that, except for seating for children and the elderly, there was hardly any room on them for our possessions. And after three months of arduous trudging on foot and on muddy roads with frequent rainfall, we received an order from the accompanying Wehrmacht soldiers. The wagons and animals were to be left at a collection center, and the rest of the transport toward the Warthegau would be on freight train. In the Warthegau, Polish residents were simply driven from their properties to provide living space for the “resettlers.” January of 1945 then brought the further order for everyone to evacuate the Warthegau to move on westward toward the “Old Reich.”

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/

The annexed parts were controlled by a German administration ruled by a Gauleiter, similar to the practice in the Reich itself. Nearly 1 million Poles were expelled from this German ruled area while 600,000 Germans from Eastern Europe and 400,000 from the German Reich were settled there. After the Germans attacked the Soviet Union in June 1941 the rest of Poland too, succumbed to German rule. The southeastern part (Distrikt Galizien) became part of the Generalgouvernement.

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Zaglembia/zag060E.html

Fritz Bracht had been appointed to the office of the Gauleiter over Upper Silesia an the 9th of February 1941. At the ceremony was present Hess in his own person, then one of Hitler’s most faithful helpers (now imprisoned in England). In his speech an that occasion Hess declared that Upper Silesia would turn into a Germanized area in no time. Great numbers of Polish peasants were being regularly expelled and settled in the General Government, while German colonists were being transferred from Bessarabia and other areas, and resettled in Zaglembie. At the same time German children were being evacuated to Upper Silesia from West Germany, which was being constantly bombarded by the English.

…

I tend to think that any German civilians moving into deserted villages had an idea of what the story was.