Why are you belaboring these points? You should know better than that.
No, I don’t think that everything on TV is of high quality. This has absolutely no bearing on the question at hand – namely, whether Dio can produce a comparable script. We can acknowledge that there’s some dreck on TV – heck, a lot of dreck – while simultaneously acknowleding that it’s not easy to whip up a good script. You know this, so why are you asking irrelevant questions?
And nobody has accused Diogenes of saying that every single TV writer, without exception, is incompetent. Once again though, this has no bearing on the question at hand – namely, whether he produce a good (or even passable) TV script. Heck, his own claim was far grander; he claimed that he could pissing one out on the snow. Even if we allow for hyperbole, this indicates tremendous faith in one’s untested ability, not to mention tremendous disdain for the TV writing community.
Earlier in this thread, you complained about “moving goalposts.” If you’re so concerne about goalposts in motion, why are you so agitatedly asking people to defend claims that nobody here has uttered?
What have I failed at? How have I tried to excuse it?
That’s not me. And I never say the script will be genius. I’m just trying to make it passable.
I guess I just never thought of trying it before. I still don’t think I’d want to do it professionally. I don’t like the idea of writing to specs and not having artistic freedom.
For the record, I never said that screenwriting was easy for everyboy or that anybody can do it. I’m saying it’s easy for ME because I have an innate facility with writing and aways have.
I will also stick by my opinion that most television writing is crap. Some of you say that isn’t the writers’ fault. That it’s all the tampering and notes and whatnot that end up making
(Gingy happens to know who I work for. Sometimes, she’ll sit and watch a new episode and I will provide a running commentary via IM. Much amusement ensues.)
Hamadryad is right, though – for the most part, I keep a low profile because I really don’t want to get hounded for stuff from cast, crew and so on. I have in the past. I also have non-disclosure agreements I intend to respect. I also have some responsibilities that keep me on a very tight leash, and I like to follow the old “If you’re not sure, don’t” rule.
Unfortunately, the laws of the Message Boards are such that when you declare a wish for anonymity, you’re automatically turned into an evil person with things to hiiiide. Win some, lose some. :rolleyes:
I’m going to go drink some coffee and prepare lessons for my students for the upcoming week. Ya know, the second job I keep to make ends meet…
This thread is making me so happy, because the extraordinary internal irony tucked tight within every one of these posts just glows and shines. Take that, Alanis.
Wow. I’m trying to relate this to the kind of writing I do. Elenfair, you really crank out 50-60 pages in four days? How many words is that?
My last big tech project took me 4 months to produce a 400-page book. My kids’ books are 48 pages long, with a few paragraphs per page, and they take me a month plus to write (of course, I’m writing all of the picture descriptions and sidebars and figuring out what will fit where, what to say in words and what in pictures, and so on, so counting raw words doesn’t work).
Generally speaking (for nonfiction), a 2,000-word session is pretty good. If I can produce 4,000 words of quality work in a day, that’s a really good day, and I’m faster than average.
Sorry to jump back to page 1, but I never did respond to this.
By now, Dio, you understand that they aren’t salaried. Let me explain why I think the jobs are analogous.
I write a book. Well, I write a manuscript. It then passes through an illustrator, editor, copyeditor, proofreader, cover artist, indexer, production manager, layout designer, pressman, and a whole slew of other folks. On tech books, this will include a half-dozen peer reviewers. Once they’ve all finished with it, it makes it to you.
A screenwriter writes a script. It then passes through a pile of folks at least as long as mine. Once they’ve all finished with it, it makes it to you.
The people in the production line are different, but the process is analogous.
By the way (addressing almost everyone in the thread other than Dio here), while I agree that said some pretty assholish things, I feel that:
(a) There’s nothing wrong with him saying he’s not an idiot. I’m pleased to report that I’m not, either.
(b) We shouldn’t critique his script before he writes it. He accepted the challenge. Give him a fair shot.
I feel your pain. I was teaching a workshop on magazine and newspaper writing. Someone asked me how many articles I’ve had published. I said over 200. A student said, “If you’ve had over 200 articles published, how come I’ve never heard of you?”
I asked every attendee to think of the last magazine they read, and pick their favorite article. Everyone did. I asked them who wrote the article. Not one of them could come up with a name. I asked them to name one single writer in the last three issues of their favorite magazine. Only a handful could come up with a name. And that’s with their favorite magazine, not some of the specialty pubs I’ve written for.
Bingo! Right now, he’s one of two illustrators that have worked on my books, and he wants regular income to feed his family. If he was instrumental (or the publisher thought he was instrumental) in the success of the next book, he’d negotiate a 50/50 deal where he got the same thing I get. All of the big-name illustrators do that.
By the way, in the best interest of whatever this is, I say we need at least one other stunt House script. Dio’s goes in with those and all scripts are read to minimalize or eliminate prejudice.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, people can and do work from outside the system. So yes, I think the writers should get fair compensation, but I don’t support the guild system which prevents people from working. I don’t see a disparity there.
I still haven’t receieved an answer to my question about how everyone else in the industry who is now out of work is responding to the strike. I read that the layoffs are going to be starting next week…is there any emnity between the writers and all the other positions that are not out of work because of the shutdown? I’m genuinely curious about that.
Totally true. Screenplay pages are light on actual word count compared to, say, a novel. The actual page-count is more of a general guideline for us when it comes to time. For the show I work for right now, most of the scripts I get for polishing will range between 55 and 65 pages, depending on the writer and the parentheticals. Some writers are notorious for writing over (time), some are for writing slightly under (time). We write for flow.
The spacing rules are set that way for good reasons, most of them having to do with readability for cast, crew and staff. There’s nothing more annoying than trying to find your place on the page when trying to read sides. An improperly laid out screenplay will drive ANYONE batty. It’s also one of the main reasons novice screenwriters get their early works rejected by readers at studios when they submit their first screenplays.
I just pulled up three scripts of ours and ran a word count on the documents. These counts are NOT the counts of shooting scripts. (Those would have all the scene numbers and the greater shooting details… and all that jazz.)
10,055 (this one contained lots of exposition dialog)
7,999 (this one contained lots of action containing little dialog but taking up lots of time)
9,421 (a pretty average episode)
I can’t give you an actual final-cut timing on those, but all three ran approximately 42.5-43 minutes.
Wow, this thing is really creating a buzz. I already found a leaked excerpt of Dio’s script online. Just from the little I’ve seen so far, I can say that if you’re not wearing socks, don’t bother putting any on, because they’re just going to be knocked off again when this thing debuts.
I hope it’s okay for me to share a bit of it—I know everybody’s on pins and needles.
[INDENT]INT. WILSON’S OFFICE – NIGHT[/INDENT]
[INDENT]WILSON sits at his desk while HOUSE lies supine on the sofa with his hands covering his face.[/INDENT]
WILSON
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]Face it, House. It was only a matter of time until
someone came along and knocked you off your perch.
You finally met someone better than you, and that
means you’re human, just like everybody else—and
that’s what bothers you the most.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
HOUSE
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]I can accept that this Übermensch Diogenes is a
better doctor than I am. He’s smarter, wittier,
better looking… fine. But the way Cuddy and
Cameron couldn’t take their eyes off his
package… did you see the size of that thing?[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
WILSON
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]House…[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
HOUSE
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]Even through the lab coat you can tell he’s
swinging major pipe.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]House quickly tips a pill bottle into his mouth and swallows several pills.[/INDENT]
WILSON
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]How many of those have you had today, anyway?[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
HOUSE
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]This makes three.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
WILSON
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]I just saw you take at least four.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
HOUSE
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]Ah. I thought you meant how many bottles.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
WILSON
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]You do know what the LD-50 for acetaminophen is,
don’t you? You’re about to die a slow, painful
death from liver failure.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
HOUSE
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]Oops.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
There are also rumors of an alternate ending in which Wilson replies “well, at least now we have Dr. Diogenes to take your place,” and House falls to his knees and screams “NOOOO!!!” but its authenticity is unconfirmed.
Because I think the criticism being heaped upon Dio is bullshit, to put it bluntly. No, he can’t possibly write a script! Why, he has no training! And it’s just so hard! Poppycock. As I’ve said before, not every TV writer is talented. Why is there so much crap on TV if screenwriting is a profession limited to the writing elite?
It’s not irrelevant. Dio never said, anywhere in this thread, that he could create a script better than anything ever seen on TV, which is exactly what people are treating him as having said. He simply said he doesn’t think it’s so hard – for him – and is setting out to prove his point. He may succeed, he may not, but everyone is automatically presuming failure because, again, writing is just sooo hard. If he claimed he could do brain surgery or something, you all might have a point. But if talentless hacks can make it in the industry, then I see no reason why an unskilled, but possibly talented, internet “nobody” can’t create a passable script.
Besides, what is going to be the benchmark for “good” here? From the sound of the griping here, no-one will be satisfied Dio has won this little wager unless he wins a freakin’ Emmy or something.
You did in post #234, wherein you wrote “Whereas passing harsh judgment on the incompetence of television writers…”. You didn’t qualify that with “most television writers” or “some television writers”. And in post #232: “As opposed to the kind and gracious words that he has showered upon TV writers in general…”. Again, you made the blanket statement; Dio did not.
Again, a “put up or shut up” is warranted in the face of such boasts. Deciding it’s going to be crap without having seen the end result is not.
You were the one who claimed Diogenes was “passing harsh judgment on the incompetence of television writers”. I was pointing out that some of them may very well be incompetent, and that Dio did not claim that all were. Thus, he was not “passing harsh judgment on the incompetence of television writers” as I see it.
I’m not asking anyone to defend anything; I’m asking people to get their facts straight about what has or has not been claimed thus far. To whit: Diogenes has claimed that he could “piss out” a better script than the average 'Til Death episode, and that he feels he could write a script for a more mainstream show such as House because he’s smarter than the average “idiot”. Arrogant? hell yes. But, if his script is even as good as an average episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, then I’d say he’s done what he said he could do. Because, based on the comments in this thread, even an average episode of ELR was necessarily the product of blood, sweat and tears, and was better than what any mere (non-TV) writer could do.
Ive only read the op, so forgive me if I have posted something that has been done to death, but I think the writers are equally or more entitled to a large sum of the money there programs make, after all the stuff that makes or breaks a good show is weather or not it is written well. :dubious:
You’re a biologist by trade, correct? Presumably in your work you come across a number of different research papers of differing quality – some brilliant, some abysmal, most somewhere in the middle.
Yet would you expect an intelligent layman to be able to put together a passible experiment off the top of his head? Or would you say that no matter how intelligent that layman was, without the sort of laboratory training that a working biologist has, he would have a hard time producing anything that wasn’t abysmal?
Why is it so hard to believe that it requires a comparable amount of training to become a professional television writer?
Oh, come on you really can’t fathom why there’s so much hostility floating around?
People feel threatened if it’s implied that their expertise isn’t as special as some may have thought. It suggests the applied skill may be smoke and mirrors.
Not to mention that in this country/day/age, a person’s occupation is often experienced as their entire identity. Hence, it can feel like a survival issue.
It’ll be interesting to see what he churns out.
Personally, I think the logistics, technical insider stuff, etc. of an art don’t speak to the heart of what it takes to do well at something; then again, if a lot of the work of show writers is about juggling demands and feedback, etc. then perhaps it is true that a lot of the skill of ‘writing’ in that sense is better defined as something else like ‘writing while multitasking and dealing with egos’, etc.
And that, I’m sure, does take a particular kind of personality and resolve.
I’m not sure I’d say that it speaks to the ability of a person to write well, per se.
Because not all fields of expertise require the same amount of comparable training to do a good job? Some things are harder than others, even with training, is what I’d imagine the reason is for folks that find it hard to believe.
And writing entertaining comedy or drama requires far more training than most laymen realize.
See, the deceptive thing is that (virtually) everyone knows how to put words down on paper. It’s a very basic skill that you learn in elementary school. So when the layman sees a writer at work it looks easy. It’s just putting words down on paper, after all. How hard could it be?
But there’s a whole lot more going on than mere typing. Holding a consistent voice for each of the characters, for example. Making sure the dialog isn’t on-the-nose. Working in the necessary exposition while keeping it unobtrusive. Varying the pacing of each scene to match the dramatic needs of the narrative and the time constraints of the program. Knowing enough about camera work to insure that a scene can be blocked out properly. Starting a scene without confusing the viewer about the context. Ending a scene without it feeling flat or abrupt. Keeping the whole thing under budget.
There’s hundreds of little tricks and techniques that you learn over time as a working writer. It’s not a trivial skill to pick up and it’s very hard to do well. But unless you’ve actually spent some time trying to do it (and being critiqued by other professionals in the process) it’s really hard to grasp the intricacies of the craft.
