Why vote for school taxes? My kids are out.

The BBQ Pit
21

I have to admit I straddle the fence a bit on this one. As someone who ended up out of the public school system because the environment there was making me paranoid, bitter, and very, very angry, I have to wonder about the justice of making my parents pay for both my schooling at private schools, and continue to pay the salaries of teachers who were practicing educational malpractice. On the other hand, the public schools are, as you say, required to give everyone an education, no matter their needs. It’s not an easy thing to answer. Having said that I have really no great problems with the idea of school vouchers for students who have been taken out of the public schools - not on a full per capita average cost per student for the school district, but 35-50% of that doesn’t seem unreasonable, either.

Yes, it is. Even though I do support school sports,I agree completely with that last statement. And college sports are even worse. :rolleyes:

22

Regarding the public/private school funding: It’s in my mind analagous to public and private health clinics. My town has a public health department where I can go for certain health care, and where children can get the immunizations they need for school. I have never used it. When my kids were of the age, insurance did not cover well-child visits, immunizations, or even a lot of illnesses; only hospitalization and injuries. I still paid privately rather than use the public health facilities. Would I have been justified in asking for a public voucher to use at the doctor?

It goes back to the same issue raised in the OP: Just because you don’t use a particular public-funded service or whatever, doesn’t mean you don’t help pay for it. I still pay for highways I’ll never ride on.

23

I did say I straddle the fence here. :slight_smile:

And my own experience leaves me pretty bitter about public schools in general. When the teachers are helping the little mon- darlings ostracize and mock a student there is something seriously wrong there. When the reason for using private schools is to keep your child out of the nuthouse, because that’s where the public schools were driving him or her… I want to hurt those idiots. forget about being a good citizen.

Doesn’t mean I like myself when I think about it. :dubious: But there are enough similar stories I’ve heard that I do think vouchers are… not entirely a bad idea.

24

Absolutely. Of course, this has been known to happen in private schools as well. Ideally, the situation in the school would be brought to the attention of the administration, and dealt with appropriately and without recriminations onto the child. Ideal situations rarely happen, however.

25

Yup and yup. But when it happens in a private school the parents can vote their feelings with their tuition. They can’t when it happens in a public school, and the administration aids and abets and holds the teachers above reproach because they’ve got tenure… <deep breath>
Sorry, I’m really ranting now. You don’t deserve to get in the way of this. My apologies.

26

It’s a continum, and terribly hard to pin down. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who bleats, “Shouldn’t hafta pay anything my own pwecious self doesn’t use!”, too often wearing highly selective blinkers about what they’ve already consumed and taken for granted. They’re one exteme, but at least unusually honest about their selfishness.
But there’s a principled, reasoned opposition to throwing more money into a system that flagrantly hasn’t worked for a long time. Assigning blame for what’s broken is fodder for big business, big government and plenty of bar fights. Lord knows there’s plenty of blame to go around, right up and down the chain, from ridiculous bureaucracy, unions protecting the inept and just plain neglectful parents.
Three-quarters of my local tax bill goes towards schools. Everything else–police, fire, ambulance, streets, sewers, snow removal, libraries, housing inspections, parks, economic development, etc.–come out the remainder. And the schools remain a bottomless pit, with little–if any–appreciable improvement. The focus-du-jour usually ends up being a diversion: sports vs. academics; language classes cancelled, unwed mother classes added; close this building but we need to build a new one.
I’m the daughter of a born, passionate teacher who was also a kickass union rep, FWIW. She disdained marginal teachers but loathed the mind-boggling layers of pure waste that beggared anything or anybody that ever got close to an actual classroom or kid. My experience as an adult and taxpayer has reinforced that. Ridiculously over-paid “Curriculum Coordinators” who don’t actually produce anything usable. The local Vice Principal for At Risk Students, who rarely bothers to show up at work, who pulls down a higher salary than most city department heads, well up in five figures. Two superintendents within five years, three new principals and nothing ever actually improves one whit for kids.
It’s just one more reason why I’m not a political party animal, because neither “side” has produced anything beyond smoke, mirrors and bombast.

Veb

Who’s actually too tired and discouraged to post productively right now.

27

But a very minor example of pissed away tax dollars which were supposed to be for the common good

Let’s make a tax list:

Sales Tax
Property Tax
Income Tax(Federal and State)
Gas Tax
Taxes on every bill I pay including phone and electric.
Tolls every day driving to work to so I can pay more goddamn taxes.
I voted against the last local bond issue to give the schools money. I don’t have kids in private schools, I’m not old and on fixed income and I’m not unsympathetic to people needing tax dollars. Why did I vote against the tax? While I’m sure someone will say it’s because I’m an asshole, the reason is that I can’t afford to keep giving away money to every goddamn thing some whiny mother fucker thinks is a great cause and that I should pay for. Listen bitches, I’ve got a goddamn car note, house note and credit card bills to pay besides having a few minor bills for extras like food and electricity. My middle class suburban ass isn’t some fucking infinite well of cash.

I’m real fucking sorry your kids can’t play baseball after school or the band can’t buy new instruments and Johnny will have to use some old beat up piece of shit. I’ll be losing sleep each night that poor Jane can’t use a supercomputer and has to use some less than state of the art model which is a year old. My god, the horror!

I’ll make a deal with anyone wanting to raise taxes to pay for education. Give me a solid dollar amount which will be enough and I’ll vote for it. One amount which won’t increase year to year(excluding inflation). The problem with this is that no matter what amount was voted on, next year another campaign will start for another tax increase.

Flame away but I’m voting against the next bond issue too and won’t lose any sleep.

28

[QUOTE=The Long RoadWhy did I vote against the tax? While I’m sure someone will say it’s because I’m an asshole, the reason is that I can’t afford to keep giving away money to every goddamn thing some whiny mother fucker thinks is a great cause and that I should pay for. Listen bitches, I’ve got a goddamn car note, house note and credit card bills to pay besides having a few minor bills for extras like food and electricity. My middle class suburban ass isn’t some fucking infinite well of cash. [/quote]
What the fuck makes you think that everyone else does? There are a lot of parents with school-age kids in your situation, maybe even most of them in your area, and a lot more who’d love to *have * a house and a car, who somehow are able to recognize that obligations come first and lifestyles have to be arranged to accommodate that. For some, all that would take is to buy one less fucking scratch ticket when the Social Security check comes in (somehow they don’t think *that’s * a tax).

Ahem. They’re your kids too. They’re members of the community just like you, members to whom you have obligations and who have or will have obligations to you too. Fuck them and you’re fucking yourself.

The structure doesn’t work that way in this state, for instance - any tax increases over 2.5%/yr, inflation notwithstanding, have to keep getting voted on. Here’s the deal for you - tell us how much is “enough” IYHO, i.e. what the schools should and should not do and how much that costs. Otherwise, you’re just going to automatically say it’s too much and you’ll vote against it anyway, right? Pal, your responsibilities run deeper than you admit, or even know. It’s gonna getcha someday.
As for the several comments about waste and mismanagement, sure, those are always possibilities. There is no 100% efficient organization, either governemtn-run or privately-run. We do know the workings of this system well enough, though, to understand that those are not general problems here. TVeb, we do have some of the same problems with improved education caused by rapid turnover, which itself is caused by funding as the most “marketable” teachers bail out of a constantly-deteriorating situation. A music program or a sports program builds on stability and commitment in the elementary and middle school levels so it can blossom in high school. That can’t happen if you get a different short-timer in every year doing things his own way.

29

Just to stick my head in here for a bit and agree with the OP in that people need to vote YES more often…

In my community, the most vocal of all folks are the ones who say “teachers make too much money” and “teachers have too good health benefits” and “teachers don’t work hard - they get 3 months off a year!”

Those are people with kids in school, mind you. As noted by the one teacher who wrote a rebuttal to a guy’s “teachers make too much money” letter to the editor by saying “I stayed late last week to write your son’s college referral letter. And to grade his exam.”

People. suck.

30

I don’t appreciate it when the only way the school board can find to reduce the budget is by cutting the most visible programs. They want to build a new fieldhouse but when their budget gets voted down they have to cut the drama club instead. Simply because they know those parents will make a big stink and get the budget passed. They do the same with sports. The cost of a minor sports team is low compared to the number of pissed off parents it creates.

Makes me not trust them a bit.

31

I’m a little curious-are you talking about Lexington, Massachusetts. I am a proud Lexingtonian and a graduate of LHS myself but I do think the town tends to mishandle money. Do we really need oak panels and leather stuffed everything in the library? I grew up working at Carey Memorial and I fully supported its renovation but it seemed a little excessive if you know what I mean.

If you’re not talking about good old Lex.-my bad.

32

By the way-I don’t see the Western suburb property values decreasing anytime soon-tax override or no tax override! It’s not just Lex-the entire Lincoln-Lex-Bedford-Wellesley-Carlisle-Wayland-Acton area is impossible to move into unless you have two working professionals in the household. I haven’t seen a single livable house in the area going for below 500K.

33

I’m on the South Shore, and it’s the same here. Quincy’s property tax shot up to an anstronomical amount (I don’t recall the exact percentage) because they refused to pass the latest override. Guess what? You can’t walk down any street without tripping over “For Sale” signs (FYI to not-living-in-the-area Dopers – Quincy is your typical working class small city. The shipyard used to be the biggest employer until it went under back in the late 70s. The city’s been struggling ever since).

The same goes for my town, too. Although we’ve had a growth spurt of young families for the past few years, most of my town’s population is elderly, living on fixed incomes, etc. There is no way my mother could still afford to live here if she hadn’t received an abatement on her property tax. And there is no way in hell my husband and I could stay here if she, God forbid, died or moved into a nursing home.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to keep pushing the property taxes up – if I had kids, I know I’d be one of the more vocal supporters for it. But I’m on the other side of the coin. I’ve seen firsthand what it does to those who’ve lived here 20+ years. It’s as though the town’s saying to them, “Get up, get out, move along…you don’t belong here anymore, you can’t afford us.” Excuse me? They’ve kept the town afloat all these years, asshats! They’ve been paying their taxes all along, whether or not they had kids in the public schools. They know the value of town services, etc. It’s not that they don’t want the same for others – THEY CAN NO LONGER AFFORD THEM!

steps off the soapbox before she really starts a verbal tirade

34

That’s certainly a possibility in this case (and no, it isn’t Lexington - we’d love to have their problems). But it may not be true, either - a good number of people in Winthrop thought *their * Town Meeting and School Boards were bluffing, too, as well as those who simply refused to vote for their override, but as of this coming year, there are no sports or clubs or anything beyond legal requirements in Winthrop.

kiz, as for property values, that is hardly the result of anyone’s acceptance or denial of responsibility, or of anyone’s actions at all; just supply and demand, and it’s everywhere. The town isn’t telling older people to go or younger people not to come; it’s just the old Invisible Hand. Yes, it’s tough on people who want to stay or people who want to buy, and the only winners are the sellers who had held for a long time. I have no idea what can be done about it, do you?

35

My husband and I have always been supporters of local education, but he does not vote for levies very often any more and sometimes I do not either. This is because of many reasons, but here are a couple:

Scenario A: School asks for mega money to … get this… build a new school when the school facility is already adequate. The argument was made at school board meetings that other places have nicer schools and we need a bigger gym for sporting events. No, I did not vote for this. If the school was crumbling, or too small, then fine. But right after they built this, they closed down another school that was only 25 years old.

Scenario B: Same school district that built the school, did not, allegedly, include enough in their levy to OPERATE THE FUCKING THING. So they asked for more, I said no.

Scenario C: School District tells us, after their audited by the state, that they have mismanaged funds for 10 years and need money to make basic updates and repairs to facilities that were supposed to have been done with earlier levies. No one is being fired, they just want more money. I said no.

Scenario D: Children are using textbooks that are 20 years old, but the fotoball team has new uniforms. The athletic department IS supported by general revenue, it was just not the boosters.

In sum, my husband and I have no children and likely never will. He went to private school all his life, and I went half of mine. However, we still support funds IF THEY GO TO EDUCATION. Not these new palacial facilities with 40 foot foyer’s when the old facilities are fine, not new stadiums, not new uniforms for sporting teams, not the frills. I want good pay, good teachers, good administrators, technology updates and up to date textbooks. I want teacher incentive programs and funds to extra-curricular activites that do a little more than athletics, such as, I don’t know, maybe like educate the children. I want less administration and more teachers.

The next time there is a levy that says, we need 100k for textbooks, I will help pass it. But until such time as they act responsibly, I will likely withhold my vote and it is almost guaranteed my husband will.

36

When our last override didn’t pass, my town, like Winthrop, cut all the extracurriculars both at the high and middle schools. The fee for participating in a varsity sport went up. Both the PTO and the kids staged several raffles and other townwide fundraising events, which resulted in reinstating some of the extracurriculars for this upcoming year, but not all. Right now they’re fighting to keep the high school drama coach on the town payroll, but so far the town’s turned a deaf ear.

What we can do? Change the way public education is funded.* The wealthier the town/city, the more “excess” funding it has for the extracurriculars, thanks to its property tax. A town without a wealthy property tax base already have a major strike against it. That isn’t fair to the kids there, and there is something seriously wrong with that.

*[sub] I know this is a far-reaching idea that, if it were to happen, would topple our entire tax system, which actually wouldn’t be a bad thing :wink:[/sub]

37

Scenario C’s happened where I live, too – actually, the they finished the audit a few months ago. No wonder why the last few overrides didn’t pass :wink: The last one we had (which did pass by a very narrow margin, incidentially) turned into an old-fashioned mud-slinging event on both sides. The PTO took out what I thought were very nasty ads in the local paper – something to the effect if IF YOU DON’T VOTE “YES” OUR KIDS WILL HANG YOU IN EFFIGY. The other side kept pointing out that the town had mismanaged the money, they’ll do it again and again, so why bother passing it?

I went to private school, too. Yes, we had extracurriculars, sports, etc., but academics was first and foremost. That’s the way it should be, public or private.

38

That is the complete and entire crux of the matter. (does anything besides matter have a crux, BTW?)

Anyway, why should one pay taxes on what he already owns? Jeez, a person works hard, buys a home and pays off his mortgage, but yet the taxes go up and up and there’s nothing he can do about it besides vote down the school budget. In these parts, anyway, it’s the only budget we vote on.

This kind of tax also falls hard on working people who experience a drop in income because of layoffs and/or illness. Your income goes down but your taxes keep going up anyway.

In NJ several years ago the income tax was passed on the promise that the proceeds would be used to reduce property taxes. I shudder to think what they would have been otherwise, assuming our elected officials are truthful. (Yes, and the tooth fairy is real, too.)

Mine just went from $6400 to $7400 a year. They just had to have a new high school out in the more rural section of town, while we have a perfectly good building located right where most of the population is. It got voted down once, but passed the second time. I think they took out the part about the swimming pool. This is a mixed-population town, not a wealthy one at all. So now we not only have to pay for the new school it will cost us more in transportation as well. I have no idea what they’re doing with the old building.

39

I’m not going to say you’re wrong in your assessment, but there are a couple of ways that that could still save money. First and foremost, if your school in the center of things is 1950’s or 1960’s construction, they may be able to save huge amounts just by using a modern heating system. Replacing a steam heat system to use something else just isn’t worth it in an old, underinsulated building. The costs for replacing the steam piping (which would have to be replaced every 25-30 years ANYWAYS because of corrosion.) is pretty high, since you pretty much have to gut the building to put in new pipes.

Another possibility, which might actually have made more economic sense, would be to use the old building for a shopping center in the center of town, and sell it lock, stock and barrel to a developer.

Just a couple of ideas. No idea whether they’re the case in your situation.

40

I can understand people voting against new schools when it will significantly increase their property taxes or the current schools are already adequate but in my town I don’t know what people are thinking.

I live in a small midwestern town. The population has more than doubled in the last 15 years. The middle school will be overcrowded next year. The grade schools are approaching full now with each class having 22-23 children (yes I counted, because I want to know the facts before I make a decision), and these are not large classrooms. Part of the middle school building was built in 1919 and is really just not funcional and is a big waste of space. The high school is at capacity.

We just voted on a proposal to replace the oldest middle school section and move district offices that are now housed in the middle school to a new building, also on the proposal. Because of refinacing of old debt at better interest rates the whole plan will result in LOWER property tax bills for most people. Not a whole lot lower, but not higher. The proposal barely passed.

One person I know who has no children in school told me “you know the schools aren’t crowded, there’s only 11-13 kids in each class”. He has never been in a school and has no idea. He should go into my sons room where if they added one more desk the teacher wouldn’t be able to completely walk around the room and this is in the least crowded of the grade schools. All I said to him is “I’ve never seen that”. People who won’t look into facts and just listen to gossip and speculation can’t be told anything anyway, they’re just always right. I think people look at the reports of student/ staff ratio and think that means class size.

Also… if all those senior citizens hadn’t had huge familie maybe we wouldn’t need so many new schools. I have three friends who come from families with more that 12 children. Maybe I should vote everything down because I only have two children.