I’ve heard this over, and over and over again for the last 20 years or so. And you know what? I’m finally going to pop the next time some-one (not MLS specifically) says this to me.
Fixed income?!?! Fixed income!?!?!! What I wouldn’t give to have a fixed income. Most of those people on a fixed income have at least that stability. Try living on a variable income. No raises at my company for the last 3 years, due to the economy. My wife’s billings went down for the same reason. According to Conference Board figures, the average American’s income has dropped. We’re just now coming out of recession.
And yet, my less-than-fixed income and I have voted for increased school funding. It’s still in my best interest, as it is for those on the fixed income.
Well, shit. I’ve got car notes, utility bills, and other taxes to pay, too. I also wouldn’t dream of depriving little Susie of her computer (which might teach her a marketable skill) or Johnny’s instrument (which might earn him a scholarship to college).
The reason I support extracurricular activities, reasonably new equipment, good textbooks, and adequate staffing is because our kids don’t need to be shortchanged any more than they already are. Extracurriculars keep kids occupied and supervised. New equipment and textbooks ensure their skills and knowledge come from this century. Adequate numbers of teachers and support staff ensure that Susie and Johnny have people who can make sure they don’t get lost in the crowd and graduate with a useless diploma.
Quality education costs money. There is no way around that. If you don’t like that idea, tough. You can bitch and moan about how the girl behind the register at Starbucks can’t make change.
I have my middle son in a private Catholic school and my older son in public high school, and I have problems with both schools when it comes to allocation of funds.
First, the private Catholic schools do not pay enough for teachers because of under-enrollment, therefore we do not have the most qualified teachers. The co-principals are always imposing fundraising schemes upon the kids and parents when were already paying ~$4k annually. The facility maintenance sucks up a sizeable fraction of the money, leaving smaller and smaller amounts for teachers and materials. My oldest also went to this school and had trouble in some areas of academics when he moved on to public high school. He is improving…
But how the hell can my son improve in public high school when the weasel-fucking teacher’s union (along with gonadless administration) allows such lenient policies like letting a teacher go to a THREE AND HALF MONTH JURY DUTY (with pay) during the middle of the school year, and then send unknowlegable substitues that are likened to babysitters, and then the teacher bases the whole semester grade on one test? Worthless, WORTHLESS, WORTHLESS!
Civic duties like spending 1-5 days for jury duty is acceptable…but skipping out on your classes of kids for more than 1/3 of the year because a murder trial “sounded interesting”, is plain-ass fraud…next time, Mr. Fat-Ass-Spanish-Teacher, do something thats “sounds interesting” in the summer.
If you cut out waste like that, then I would be more willing to look at the bond issues more closely…I’m in Spooje’s corner on this one. It has nothing to do with “fixed income”, it has everything to do with “fiscal responsibility”. Seniors aren’t the only ones who vote.
Hold it, right there. In your locale, is there an option? Where I live there are very few (legal) ways to avoid jury duty. You can be too sick, or be the primary caregiver of a minor child, and a few other things, but the inconvenience of one’s employer is not AFAIK one of them. Again, maybe different where you live.
Granted, the way you say this was handled was far from optimal. I’ve seen a “permanent substitute” fully licensed and qualified teacher take over in an excellent manner during the extended absence of a regular teacher for maternity or other reasons. I’ve also seen teachers who were unable to be physically in the classroom every day send in detailed lesson plans and assignments, and remain involved in their job. Again, some people in every profession and trade have values and a sense of pride in their work, and some don’t.
Well, what’s unspoken in the “fixed income” complaint is that it’s fixed at far lower than even your variable income, and will not get any larger, ever, regardless of whether the economy improves. Besides, wouldn’t you be better off, too, if the tax were actually based on your income and your ability to pay rather than on what you already own? I think that’s the main issue. It’s not right that a person who gets laid off, or is on disability, should have to choose between taxes, medicine or food, either. You at least have the hope that your company’s situation will improve, or you might find a better job, or whatever. A retiree or a disabled person has no such prospects and it can be quite grim.
Actually, that is often a factor. Not every judge will allow it to be used, but a trial with an expected time before a jury of over a few weeks is usually considered an unusual circumstance, and a hardship for both the juror and the employer. And not all employers will cover for full pay for that long an absence. IIRC most jurisdictions only require that the juror’s job be preserved, and while on jury duty the juror gets paid by the jurisdiction. According to the post from Yeticus Rex the teacher involved choose NOT to object to that particular jury duty, with the implication that getting out of it was possible.
And even where the juror’s job is preserved by law, it’s still not something most people will approach with equanimity: Be honest, wouldn’t you be worried about the stability of your job if you were out of the office for three months? The famous anecdote about this is a prospective juror asking to be excused because of the projected length of the trial. The judge on the case asks, “Can’t your employer survive without you?”
Well, I moved from New Jersey to California 7 years ago. My property tax rate went down. I wish that I was paying what I did in NJ, because my kids got a lot more for it. In NJ they got 8 periods a day, here they have 7. They had language and science all throughout middle school, instead of for only one year. They had art and music and time for an elective - none of that here. In NJ they had PE all through high school, instead for only two years. My daughter, who was in 8th grade when we moved, was almost a full year academically ahead of the California kids, and wound up taking classes in the high school because she had done the math and language they were giving in 8th grade a year before. So thank your lucky stars. We got Prop 13, and destroyed the education of a generation of kids. And now they are whining about how come the furriners come in and take the jobs.
I wonder if any of you whiners get involved with your schools. People voted against a bond issue because they didn’t like the way the district spent the money, so some parents got together with the administration and set up an oversight board for the next one. I had this stereotype of Californians being a bunch of wackos, so I got myself on the site council of the high school and even the textbook review committee - where I discovered that the teachers picking the new science textbooks did a wonderful job. I was worried about the gifted program also, so I’m on the board of a parent advocacy group - and I know that the district GATE administrator does a fantastic job in pushing for gifted kids.
if the town or the school board is doing a rotten job (and I don’t doubt they might be) have you worked on the campaign of someone running who will do better?
One big advantage of this that is selfish - if you need to complain about a teacher, the powers that be, knowing you care about the schools, actually listen.
Which is why I have little sympathy for most of the people I know who complain about the high property taxes they pay on a fixed income. Every person I know who makes this complaint moved from NYC ( where the property tax is very low and there is an income tax) to suburbs that have no income tax and a high property tax. But it seems they never considered that they might have difficulty paying those property taxes on a pension.
A few decades ago, even before my children were in school, I got very involved in the school system – I ran for school board, and won. I served for 9 years. I got to see a lot. My original motivations included doing something about our excessive property tax, an interest in education (former teacher), and a conviction that there should be better programs for the academically gifted, not just the athletically gifted.
The retirees I saw lived in this town most of their adult lives, bought a home, raised their children, and lived to see an excruciating part of their limited retirement income going to ever-rising property taxes. And they didn’t want to move to a low property tax state. They wanted to stay here, where their friends and their families are. I’m not saying you’re untruthful, but I didn’t see that situation.
Yes, very interesting. I also saw people who enrolled their children in expensive private schools, (using books purchased by the public school, riding buses paid for by tax dollars, BTW) find that when the youngster transferred to our lowly, supposedly inferior public schools, they needed remediation to be brought up to grade level.
As someone said earlier, it’s not an issue that there’s a simple answer to. People scream bloody murder if you suggest a high enough income tax to properly fund the schools. Probably justifiable, since as I said earlier our state income tax and sales tax was supposed to do that; they started out low and continue to climb, but our property taxes are shooting upwards as well. I know I need to pay for the education of all the children since I want to live in an educated society, and when I’m 88 and need a doctor, I want there to be one! And I want good writers, musicians, historians and scientists, too. But I resent paying over $7K per year so that there can be a manicured football field, a swimming pool and a gazillion supernumerary middle managers.
When I lived in NJ, there was some reduction of property taxes for senior citizens, if I am remembering correctly. This seems to me to be a very fair thing to do, and a lot more efficient than cutting school funding and the taxes of people who can afford it. In California people living next door to each other, earning similar salaries and with houses worth similar amounts, can pay wildly different property taxes if one live there 20 years and another only 2. Even worse, the property tax rates of businesses are under the same rules - and businesses don’t retire.
And I agree that it is to everyone’s best interest to prevent excessive spending on junk. The only thing that happens then is that there is ammunition for the tax cutters, and the important stuff gets thrown out with the dross.
Personally I think it’s society’s duty and best interest to have stellar schools, so I’m willing to pay up for education. That means I think we should provide decent buildings, books, computers, and pay a competitive wage to teachers so that each child can get a solid education. An educated society is in all of our best interest.
However, I do not think it’s society’s duty to field a great soccer team or marching band. Those are enrichment programs and are “want” vs. “need” items. IMO the need items should be paid by the parents of the children who want to participate and not by people who don’t have children in the schools.
Disclaimer: my children go to private schools. I’ll gladly vote for any levy where the “need” items are not being met. I won’t vote for a levy where I hear the board proclaim that “if the levy fails, we’ll have to start charging for soccer uniforms and cut theatre.”
You want the grandma who can’t afford cable to pay more property taxes so your kid can pretend to be Romeo?
Yes, there is a senior citizen reduction. It’s not much, but at least it’s something.
The different tax amount for similar houses is the result of too-infrequent re-assessment. This is something I learned during my public service phase. The only alternative is to invoke some sort of formula that says well, Joe paid $300K for this house, but it’s a lot like Jane’s house which is currently assessed at $200K, so we’ll pretend Joe paid $200K and tax him on that. It can get real dicey. If you reassess too often it scares the pants off the Sr. Cits, because they say holy cow, my house is now assessed for twice as much, so obviously I’m going to be paying twice as much in taxes. Of course, it helps if your tax assessor is an evil and corrupt s.o.b., but that’s a separate issue.
Of course, a quality drama program is part of a solid education, too.
The problem is, of course, that people differ widely on what a “solid education” is. To some old timers it’s basic reading and writing, maybe enough math to make change. Others feel you “need” the sports and ex-curric. to keep the kids interested.
I had one friend who was vehemently opposed to every single public school expenditure beyond the most Spartan curriculum and facilities. In due time she had a child. When he turned five she immediately put him into the best private school she could afford, and bragged about how much better it was than the terrible public schools her tax money was being wasted on. Why, they had a beautiful facility, a splendiferous music program, and a computer in every classroom. She could not fathom the idea that a child from a family that could not afford private school might also be bright, gifted or talented, or that society would be better off if said child of poverty were taught about literature and culture.
My problem is that I see both sides and they are both right. If only reasonable people like us were in charge, we would fix everything and it would be perfect.
I don’t think I was clear. I don’t mean the people moved to the property tax suburbs when they retired- they moved there as young or middle aged adults, from a city that has a low property tax ( I pay about $1600/year) and has an income tax.
One example is my brother. He bought a house in Suffolk that cost a little less than houses in my neighborhood in Queens were going for at the time. He pays no local income tax, just property and school taxes. He pays more in property tax than I pay in real estate and local income taxes combined. By the time he retires, he will have been living there for at least twenty or thirty years. He will probably want to stay where he is. But he knew when he bought the house that his property tax would not be based on his income, and he knew that many of our relatives had recently moved because they could not longer pay the property taxes on their pensions. When he retires and complains that he can’t afford the property taxes on his retirement income, I’m not going to feel terribly sorry for him, because he knew it was likely to happen.
Ahh, but it doesn’t cost one red cent to read your child a book or to watch a documentary on PBS. There is no admission charge to most art museums during the week. Local theatre company and symphonies offer free outdoor performances in the summer. Culture is there if the parents want it.
Throwing tons of money into the schools will never compensate for crappy parents. “Society” can only supply the trough. It can’t force the horse to drink, let alone force him to enjoy the drink.
Exactly…You (the juror) have fulfilled your obligation for jury duty, even with one day of service. You are asked at the beginning of your service if you are available for longer periods of time. Fat-Ass-Spanish-Teacher had that option, and obviously the kids he teaches took a backseat to his self-interests. Knowing that he was going to get paid either way made his selfish decision even easier.
Unions are a double-edge sword, and this is just one example of the waste they cause.
That’s absolutely true. I think my parents did quite well in that way, especially considering that neither of them had a college degree and my father worked in a factory. Not all parents can or will, though, and children with a ton of potential sometimes never find a supportive environment.
Of course, if the parents are not able to do so, in an ideal world society would educate even the poorest child of the most ignorant parents.
What I was put off by was my friend putting down the public schools for “wasting” money on the “frills” that she later found to be indispensable for her own child.
Ah, you misunderstand - which comes from the fact that you live in civilization.
In California reassessments are triggered only by a new owner or a major rennovation. The taxes the previous owners of the house we bought were paying were based on the valuation of the house when Prop 13 passed. It jumped about threefold when we bought it. In seven years the market prices has nearly doubled but the assessed valuation has not budged.
This is one of the reasons for our high house prices. If your four kids moved out of your five bedroom house, you can’t afford to buy anything smaller - the increased taxes will kill you.
Ah, you misunderstand - which comes from the fact that you live in civilization.
In California reassessments are triggered only by a new owner or a major rennovation. The taxes the previous owners of the house we bought were paying were based on the valuation of the house when Prop 13 passed. It jumped about threefold when we bought it. In seven years the market prices has nearly doubled but the assessed valuation has not budged.
This is one of the reasons for our high house prices. If your four kids moved out of your five bedroom house, you can’t afford to buy anything smaller - the increased taxes will kill you.
but the assessed valuation has not budged.