Why was Japan the exception and not the rule?

Factual Questions
61

  1. I’m not sure why you felt the need to start a Pit thread about this, or what this achieved. I have nothing against the Pit and I do sometimes stop by to read some of the threads, but I don’t choose to participate in there. I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your ‘cite’ challege as quickly as you would have liked. I just had other, non-Dope things to do. And besides, some people participating in this thread felt that this point about the validity of IQ tests was a hijack, and that if want to discuss it then it was best to start a fresh GQ or IMHO thread.

  2. I know that in some debates and discussions, it can be useful to challenge people to provide specific cites. But I’m not sure that it’s the best or most appropriate response in every case. Sometimes, you can know things based on a lot of personal experience and reading, without necessarily being able to provide specific cites whenever one is challenged to do so. Of course, we all want to be on our guard against flawed ‘arguments from personal experience’, but nonetheless it’s possible to be right about something even if you can’t dredge up suporting cites on request.

  3. ‘Cite’ wars often don’t achieve anything, as I think all Dopers are only too aware. Just suppose for a second that I did provide a few cites and references in response to your enquiry. You might then say that the cites I’ve provided aren’t from good enough sources, or don’t accurately support the position I’ve advanced, or are themselves biased / inaccurate / misleading. We could also get into the ‘my cite’ versus ‘your cite’ loop. After all, there’s an ‘expert’ willing to back just about every shade of opinion, as all lawyers are painfully aware (‘my expert witness’ .v. ‘your expert witness’ chews up an awful lot of court time).

  4. In this particular case, I wasn’t basing my statement on a particular source or sources that I can readily cite for you. I freely admit this. I suppose I was basing it on the fact that I’m 45, and because of the work I do now (and have done in the past) I’ve talked to literally hundreds of employers, all over the world, running all kinds of businesses and companies, who tell me that they’ve found no correlation at all between how intelligent someone seems to be on paper (IQ tests, SATs, academic prowess) and whether they actually seem to exhibit any intelligence once they’re employed and dealing with the real world.

I’ve also talked with lots of people involved in the education industry (from teachers to head teachers and people who study academic stats), and I haven’t met anyone who seriously thought that IQ tests measured anything except the ability to pass IQ tests.

I’ve also been lucky enough to meet a very broad cross-section of people, from many different walks of life, and their own testimony suggests there is no correspondence between being able to do well on an IQ test, or any other kind of paper exam, and any measure of success or intelligence in real life (in other words, I’ve met plenty who openly admit they have high IQ scores but aren’t very smart or successful, and many who cheerfully admit they are a dunce at any paper exam but who have nevertheless made exceptionally smart moves in life.)

I’ve also read quite a lot about the subject, but I don’t have those books now (I sometimes have big clearouts of books). If I’d known someone was going to ask me for cites, perhaps I’d have kept them! I’ve just discovered that I apparently no longer even have ‘The Mismeasure of Man’ by Stephen J. Gould, which I thought I’d kept.

Of course, you are free to shoot all this down as personal and anecdotal ‘evidence’ that doesn’t count for anything. Be my guest. Perhaps we differ on what we are willing to accept as ‘good evidence’ in this particular discussion! And why not?

  1. If you really want cites and academic literature that you can read, may I suggest you refer to ‘Skeptic’ magazine, Vol 3, Nbrs 3 and 4. In the course of a discussion concerning The Bell Curve by Herrnstein and Murray, you will find a set of articles offering a range of opinions about the validity of IQ tests, and some of these articles have very detailed bibliographies and suggestions for further reading. Enjoy!

  2. There is always the possibility that I’m completely wrong about this. In which case, I’ll be happy to have my ignorance defeated and to learn a thing or two that I didn’t know before. By all means, help me to form better views and opinions in future.

62

When Saddam first took over Iraq was referred to by some as the ‘Japan of the middle east’. People thought Saddam would promote education, healthcare, literacy & technology and eventually build a first world nation of sorts. Didn’t happen, he just corrupted the nation. But there was specualtion that he would do it.

As it stands it seems like alot of countries are taking the Japanese route in regards to development speed. Take South Korea, which just 50 years ago was a poor third world country but due to year after year of 9-11% economic growth they are on par with any other first world country. The reality is most of hte people who live in the developing world live in countries with growth rates of 8-10% right now.

Example

China - population 1.3 billion 9.3% growth rate
India - population 1.1 billion 7.6% growth rate
Indonesia 240 million 6% growth rate
Vietnam population 90 million 8% growth rate
Pakistan population 170 million 8% growth rate

Those 5 countries alone make up about 3 billion people and all are growing at extremely fast rates. I don’t know how fast they will continue to grow at these rates however but as it stands they are all experiencing rapid economic growth the same way South Korea did.

63

If you see Islam as inherently hostile to America, for a bit of perspective, read Karen Armstrong’s Islam: A Short History. In the late 19th century, Muslim progressives loved America and wanted to emulate us.

What went wrong?