And the “abstinence only” educators are “quoting, paraphrasing and citing” the experts in their field. :dubious:
So, you are resorting to ad hominem and personal attacks, rather than face the facts?
Sad.
Medical experts cant convince you, your “common sense” tells you they are all wrong. :rolleyes:
You are saying what the medical experts in countries where civilians rarely use masks say.
In countries where it has, for many years, been polite to wear a mask when out in public with a cold, the medical experts say something different.
Evidence for and against is low quality, being based on laboratory observations rather than randomized real-world controlled experimentation. Under those circumstances, I am going to go with the recommendations of the experts whose national heath systems have this virus under control, especially if the nations are democratic. That points to a pro-mask policy.
What about quarantine? Isn’t that why Taiwan is beating this, and not masks? I don’t exactly argue with that, but point to the idea that masks are partly medical, and partly for the we’re-all-in-this-together psychology needed for quarantine to work.
I’m in the camps of “something is better than nothing,” and “the mask protects you from me more than vice versa.” But if everyone wears them we cut the transmission rate, yes? But between outbreaks let’s put out a surplus so the average person will have them when needed.
No, that’s not what I’m doing at all. I’m pointing to a striking similarity between your message and that of the “abstinence only” sex ed movement. You would be better served, if anything, to double down and say “they have a point!” But of course you don’t want to associate yourself with them, so instead of acknowledging the parallels, you try to brush it aside as “ad hominem” or “personal attacks”. :rolleyes:
Sure, like i said, get a home made mask and wear it when going out- but only if you absolutely have to go out. Staying home is 1000% better than any mask.
No, you are just mad because your views go against medical science, and I have proven them wrong, thus this silly ad hominem attack. My message is that of Medical science, not your “common sense”.
The core claims you’re making, there’s zero empirical evidence that we have either way so quoting “experts” is just transferring their existing preconceived notions onto this.
To be clear, there’s two different claims being made:
- Cloth face coverings & surgical masks help, but not as much as people think
- Cloth face coverings actually make things more risky because of reasons
The first is irrelevant right now, the cost of the intervention is so low and the error bars around the evidence is so high that we should just roll it out now and worry about the evidence later. For example, many people made fun of the Chinese for wearing gallon jugs on their head when going out in public. But when you think about it, it’s actually an incredibly smart intervention because the gallon jug physically stops you from touching your eyes, nose or mouth and the cost of the intervention is so low that, apart from the risk of looking silly, there’s really no smart argument against it. If you pay attention, you notice everyone with a gallon jug over their head is also wearing a mask, the jug is there to stop a completely different transmission path.
The second is impossible to determine right now for the simple reason that we haven’t even tried yet. We don’t know what the effect of a public education campaign will be or how different populations will react to the same advice. But you have to be on the extreme end of believing how little masks don’t help before the effects of risk compensation even begin to outweigh the positive benefits.
You simply can’t claim to come from a position of certainty on this, no expert can. Again, the only reason we had “experts” be so confident on the side of “masks don’t work” was because they had to hide their real reason which is “masks do work but we’re afraid of running out for HCW”. There’s no other plausible explanation to account for this.
And **DD **went further than what you are describing re: “Cloth face coverings & surgical masks” to make the absurd claim that even N95 masks like I have won’t protect a healthy person at all. Which was, as you say, quite obviously a narrative pushed by the Surgeon General and others for the sole purpose of trying to protect the supply for healthcare workers.
Not particularly useful advice for those of us who still have to go to work.
The wash your hands point, sure, but if I and my coworkers stay home society will come unglued because folks won’t get their food and toilet paper.
I’ve got my doubts about wearing gloves, but at this point the customers are somewhere between expecting and demanding it so I wear gloves. Still wash my hands before and after using them. (And no, most people don’t don/use/discard gloves properly, either)
So I expect we’ll soon be going to the customers somewhere between expecting and demanding we wear masks. I certainly don’t mind THEM wearing masks, although I suspect the sneeze guard by the cash registers might help more (while still being far from perfect). I can handle wearing a mask.
There is the problem that between their mask, the sneezeguard, and my mask we’re going to have some communication issues, especially the soft-spoken, but this pandemic is resulting in so many other problems I expect that one will get lost in the noise.
I suspect masks might also have a psychological component, which may or may not be a good thing. If wearing one makes a person feel more in control AND they continue to follow the other guidelines - stay home as much as possible, keep your distance, wash your hands - it might not be all bad.
As noted, medical experts in countries where wearing masks is common are saying something different.
Having lived in Asia for over 30 years, there is quite a difference in the doctors’ advice, and I think that in many cases researchers, doctors and common people just cherry pick to meet preconceived notions.
I’m not an expert, but it seems to be that Taiwan has done very well by getting out if front of it before the cases started to overwhelm the system. They were able to track down people who had been in close contact with infected people and were able to get them in quarantine. Their response hasn’t been perfect, but it’s certainly much better than most countries.
I’ve said this before, but for me wearing a mask helps me from touching my face. I am much more conscious about my actions.
nothing to add here except for dr fauci says that he recommends wearing masks when in any environment where you can’t control the 6’ distance. specifically he mentioned the grocery stores. this was on face the nation.
I envision two polar attitudes from people.
A) I really need to get some groceries and medicine. I’m going to run to the store but I have my list and everything. I think I can be in and out in five minutes. I’m going to be super careful about touching things and I have sanitizer in my pocket so the minute I’m back in the car I can wash. A mask…yes, it may help, I’ll make one but I know it’s probably a hail Mary.
B) Wait, hey, a mask means I have no worries. I’m going to go about my pre-pandemic life, hanging out in bars and reporting to work or whatever. Excuse me while I open my mask to sip my beer at the pub. I’m already forgetting all about social distancing, hand washing, etc. (I mean, New Yorkers gathered to watch the hospital ship arrive. :smack: Even at ground zero some are still NOT CLEAR on the concept?!)
In the best of all worlds we could lay low till it passes or we get a vaccine, but some people are essential workers who already don’t have that luxury. As time goes by, more people will have to work just so they can eat. If a miracle drug shows up tomorrow, great. But as time goes by I guess we will HAVE to improvise.
I’ve found videos for making masks out of hepa filters from vacuum cleaners…but I don’t have the skills. Maybe the private sector will have ramped up production by then.
I quoted the experts in the field. I, personally, am not certain, I have a Masters in Biology and know how to read a Scientific paper (which, you, clearly do not) but I am not a expert. I just know how to read and cite what the experts say.
You are proposing a crazy conspiracy theory.
No, I didnt say that. I say the primary purpose of medical professionals in wearing them is to protect the patients, not themselves. Certainly, if worn correctly, along with gloves, gowns, and proper sanitary procedure they provide reasonable protection.
The lay person will not wear the mask correctly. He wont put it on right, he will be constantly touching and fiddling with it, and he wont know how to take it on & off to have a drink of water, etc. He will contaminate it, thus making it useless or worse to protect him. When he gets done with it, he will quite possibly just throw it on the ground, not disposing of it properly. Most covidiots will think that the mask gives them magical protection, thus they can go out and about.
So, the mask is only of limited protection for you. That limited protection gets reduced by nearly 100% if not worn correctly. And when combined with improper disposal and the idea people can go out more, rather than shelter in place- the mask could actually put the average person at greater risk.
Good points, and my wife also works at a grocery store. You *can’t *stay home, and my best wishes and gratitude are with you.
In your case, a simple cloth mask could prevent you spreading the virus if you are asymptomatic. People will start expecting one. They wont protect you much, but they could be of value to protect others.
At where my wife works, they have sneeze guards, gloves, hand sanitizer, sprays and the employees can break to wash hands as needed. Masks are being considered.
It is amazing that we now know that grocery workers and truck drivers are the REAL essential workers in the economy. Still, despite that, the pay is crap. My sympathies on that.
If they could get a supply of n95 masks and give every grocery worker training on how to wear them, that would be nice.
A would be wonderful, but as we can see from several posters in this thread- B is far more likely to be the most common attitude.
If we all did A, and sure- why not get a cloth mask to add to the protection- this virus could be whipped.
The Atlantic is a conspiracy rag?
I like your selective quoting: "
*Other studies have been more equivocal, finding that masks provide no benefit, small benefits, or benefits only in conjunction with measures like hand-washing. “Airflow follows the path of least resistance, and if it won’t enter through the mesh, it can come in from the side,” Bourouiba said. “There’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest that [surgical masks] are protective against the smallest droplets.”
There’s still a good case for masks, though, even if they can’t stop viruses from getting in: They can stop viruses from getting out. A new study shows that people who are infected with milder human coronaviruses release fewer viral particles when they wear surgical masks. “I’ve been slightly dismissive of masks, but I was looking at them in the wrong way,” Harvard’s Bill Hanage told me. “You’re not wearing them to stop yourself getting infected, but to stop someone else getting infected.” This might be especially important for SARS-CoV-2, which can spread without immediately causing symptoms. If people are infectious before they fall sick, then everyone should wear face masks “when going out in public, in one additional societal effort to slow the spread of the virus down,” says Thomas Inglesby of the John Hopkins Center for Health Security…Or masks could have the opposite effect. Whenever Santarpia sees someone wearing a mask in public, that person is constantly touching it, futzing with it, and pulling it down to wipe their mouth. “Masks are really uncomfortable, and no one wears them correctly,” he said. “Rather than being protective, you’ve put something on your face that makes you want to touch your face more, or to touch the outside of the mask, which is infectious. You’ve created a hazard for yourself that’s right on your face…And most of all, they should remember that homemade masks are not fully protective. They’re a last-ditch measure to be used in situations when social distancing isn’t possible. “It’s not like ‘I’m wearing [a mask] and now I can talk to everyone,’” Bourouiba said."*
So, masks dont protect you so much as protect others, and you are wearing the mask wrong and contaminating it.
And all the Atlantic writer said was “This **might **well be why …” (bolding mine).
Maybe. You are sure it’s some vast conspiracy, the medical workers are hoarding the masks to protect themselves and the general public can go to hell. It’s just the opposite.
But here’s more:
https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article241783846.html
*"It’s partly because surgical masks, whether store-bought or homemade, don’t protect the wearer against the COVID-19 virus, the CDC says. But face masks can help prevent infected people from spreading the virus, even if they have no symptoms — prompting the change.
“So it’s not going to protect you, but it is going to protect your neighbor,” said infectious disease specialist Dr. Daniel Griffin at Columbia University, NPR reported…There’s a catch, however. You have to wear the mask correctly and dispose of it properly, or you might actually increase the infection risk to yourself or others.
“That’s what I see all the time,” Griffin said, NPR reported. “That’s why in the studies, masks fail — people don’t use them (correctly). They touch the front of it. They adjust it. They push it down somehow to get their nose stuck out.” …WHAT ARE SOME TIPS FOR PROPERLY WEARING A FACE MASK?..And don’t get overconfident, CNBC reported. Remember, the mask won’t protect you — it might help protect those around you.
“Better to keep the six-foot distance, better to keep in homes, better to keep washing your hands,” said Peter Gulick, associate professor of medicine at Michigan State University, according to the network.
“To be clear, you should still stay at home. This isn’t an excuse to suddenly all go out,” said Mayor Eric Garcetti of Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Times reported."*
So expert after expert after expert are saying: “the mask won’t protect you — it might help protect those around you.”
Which is exactly what I have posted.
:rolleyes: You’re entitled to disbelieve it, but you go way too far to describe it as a “crazy conspiracy theory” when it has been asserted as a pretty obvious fact by editorialists at the New York Times, the Atlantic, Vox, and on and on. Not exactly fringe conspiracy rags, those.
Once again, you sound uncannily like the “abstinence only” crowd does when talking about condoms. A critique of such programs notes:
By the kind of rhetoric you are using here, you clearly don’t think it’s valid to aspire to perfect use. People are dumb, they can’t use prophylactic measures properly, so they shouldn’t even try. :dubious:
This is an interesting pivot, given that you have said you are all about the experts and the experts at CIDRAP, as I cited upthread, say that N95 masks are *not *effective for “source control” but *are *effective in protecting the healthy. :dubious:
What posters? I somehow missed the posts from the people who said “when they said masks don’t work, I stayed home, but now that they’re recommending mask usage, I’m just partying it up everywhere!” :rolleyes:
My sense, which I have not seen contradicted by anyone in this thread, is that people who have such a cavalier attitude are already going out and (like Trump) won’t wear masks regardless of the recommendations.