Every time I look at that video I get angrier. When the cops start trying to grab him, he asked them not to touch him and he moves his arms away. Then they swarm him and grab him by the neck.
Did we ever hear them say that he was under arrest, John? If so, what crime was he being arrested for? Garner was adamant that he hadn’t sold anything and didn’t show any signs of guilt like running. Why does that not count for anything? What was the evidence for this arrest and why was an arrest necessary when he wasn’t trying to flee the scene and wasn’t posing any danger to anyone?
OK, let’s assume that he wasn’t, in fact, breaking the law. However, the cops were trying to arrest him. Sometimes the cops make mistakes arresting people, but in no circumstances do you resist arrest in the USA. If you want to plead Civil Disobedience, you stay limp and make them do all the work. But you don’t fight with the cops. We can see that he resisted arrest. That has to be part of any legitimate summary of what happened.
And once again I want to note that it still looks like excessive force, and I don’t see any justification for that used against a guy who is not suspected of a violent crime. We clearly need police procedures that allow them to arrest non-violent criminal suspects without endangering either the suspect or the cops.
To my eye though, it looks like they simply attack him. The most he did to provoke that was say something like “take your hands off me”.
The cops in the video never say 'you are under arrest. Please put your hands behind your back" or something like that. One moment they are sort of poking at him, the next they have him by the throat - it is little wonder he was “fighting” when, as we now know, they were literally choking the life out of him.
Did you hear them say he was under arrest? Or are you assuming he was being arrested because they tackled him? From what I could see, one cop asserted something that made him vehemently deny he was selling cigarettes. Then suddenly they swarmed him and tried to put him in cuffs.
What do you think they could have charged him with if he was, in fact, innocent?
And pushed the police officers’ arms away. IOW he was resisting arrest.
When a cop grabs you or otherwise detains your movements, you are legally under arrest. Unless you have a cite saying that one may resist a legal arrest until the arresting officers announce that you are under arrest verbally. (You don’t.)
Selling unlicensed cigarettes. Garner was currently out on bail for the same offense, and had been previously arrested more than thirty times for offenses like assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny, driving without a license (and selling unlicensed cigarettes).
Because he was lying, and he did show signs of guilt. like resisting arrest (again).
The reason the police officer wasn’t indicted may be related to the fact that Garner was obese, and had high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, severe asthma, and thus his death was due at least as much to that (and compression on his torso, exacerbated by his morbid obesity) as to the “choke” hold.
Keeping also in mind that an illegal “chokehold” according to NY police policy involves those holds which involve
The hold used to subdue Garner was not such a chokehold, since Garner as mentioned was able to speak. Instead it was one which produces pressure on the carotid sinus and vagus nerve, not asphyxia.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - On the subject of the different kinds of chokes, my post is not my cite - thirty years of experience having experienced and applied both types is my cite.
[QUOTE=Shodan]
When a cop grabs you or otherwise detains your movements, you are legally under arrest. Unless you have a cite saying that one may resist a legal arrest until the arresting officers announce that you are under arrest verbally.
[/QUOTE]
You are the one making a claim, not me. Put up a cite that supports what you’re saying.
Believe it or not, cops do not have free reign over our bodies. There’s a thing called the Law that they are expected to follow, just as we are.
Is this in fact true - that any move made by a police officer is, in fact, a legal “arrest” and no actual formalities are required?
Looking at the laws of New York State, I’m not so sure this is the case:
The significant provision is subsection 2, which states as follows:
It appears to me that this procedure was not followed. The susperct was not informed of “… his authority and purpose and of the reason for such arrest …”.
It is true that the same provision allows the police to omit this step if the encounter “physical resistance, flight or other factors rendering such
procedure impractical”. This does not appear to be the case. There was no such “resistance” until after the arrest was undertaken.
I don’t buy that he was resisting arrest. But even supposing he was, the cops’ response has to be proportional. Shoving someone away does not grant them immunity from prosecution for gang tackling you and choking you in such a way as results in your death. Some of you seem to believe that once one strays one iota from the path of complete and unquestioned immediate obedience to whatever someone with a badge tells you to do, that you have forfeited any expectation of coming out of the encounter alive.
As someone who is 100% in the Wilson camp on Brown I have to admit I can’t figure out why this didn’t at least go to trial. I haven’t read this whole thread and it may be covered already but from what I gather A) Chokeholds were outlawed and the police know it B) the guy was trying to tap out the whole time he was on the ground C) it’s on video and D) he was selling smokes and not really hurting anybody so why was there even a need to lay hands on the guy to begin with.
Tough to get behind this one.
As an aside I think that the Protesting Community around the nation that has put all their eggs in the Brown basket made a major mistake tying to that sinking ship since he pretty much deserved what he got in the end based on his actions. It kills all of their credibility.
With that said there are 1000’s of other, more cut and dry, abuses of power by the police against African Americans every year they could have rallied against. This one would be a perfect example. Instead the police issue is counterbalanced by Brown’s actions so no one concedes any ground to either side.
Rest assured that the grand jury found someone to indict in this murder- the guy who filmed it. Yep, no planted evidence there, move right along and be sure to obey the police as if your life depends on it.
Both CNN and FOX have shown videos of Garner’s wife, speaking at some recent press conference, saying that her husband told the police eleven times that he couldn’t breathe. Eleven times? That sounds like Garner could breathe.
It’s reported that the coroner’s report mentions hemorrhaging in or around Garner’s neck. That hemorrhaging could have contributed to Garner’s death.
Well, there is that video of Garner resisting arrest. The cops were trying to arrest Garner and Garner was resisting their efforts. That certainly looks like a clear cut case of resisting arrest.
Chokeholds aren’t “illegal” - they’re simply prohibited by NYPD guidelines. If the officer used a prohibited choke (and there appears to be some question as to whether he did) then he should be penalized appropriately, but that’s an administrative procedure, not a criminal one.
This isn’t UFC. You don’t get to “tap out”. If you don’t want to be manhandle, don’t fight back when you’re under arrest.
D) he was selling smokes and not really hurting anybody so why was there even a need to lay hands on the guy to begin with.
He was a repeat offender who resisted arrest and was already out on bail on another charge of selling loose cigarettes. It’s nobody’s fault but his own that the situation escalated.
Have you ever taken a first aid class? They’ll teach you not to perform first aid on someone who tells you they can’t breathe, because if they say they can’t breathe, they can breathe.
Strangely enough, my class didn’t teach me how to behave when I was choking someone. But I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t have included the instruction “let them lie there and die without summoning help”.