Why were ancient Greek men bisexual?

[Lemur866]

@Anne_Neville

Do we have any actual data on what percentage of Greek men had sex with men or boys? It obviously wasn’t zero, but do we know how common it actually was?

Do we have any actual data on what percentage of contemporary American men have sex with men or boys?

One method is surveying men and asking them if they have sex with men or boys, the problem with this method is that sometimes people lie about things like this.

And of course it depends on the question you ask. Is it “have you ever had sex with a man or boy?” or “Have you had sex with a man in the past year”? "And what do you count as “sex”, and how do you know the people you’re asking are using the same definition as you are?

[Gatopescado]

@panache45

From what I’ve heard (sorry, no cite), Julius Caesar was an exception to this. He was notoriously anally receptive to other men.

Et Tu, Brute?

[racepug]

@DaphneBlack

Yeah, in a nutshell, the ancient Greeks and Romans defined sexuality as ‘penetrator/penetrated’. Adult male freeborn people were penetrators, everyone else was at least ‘at risk’ of being penetrated. Being penetrated was weak/womanly/inferior/associated with slavery and a whole complex of negative images.
Also, for a man to perform cunnilingus was frankly deviant.
I doubt most ancient Greek or Roman men thought much about the idea of female homosexuality at all, though there was definitely discussion of it (as deviant, and confusing the whole penetration matrix).
The male body was ‘default’ and the standard of beauty; Aristotle’s view that women’s bodies were ‘defective’ male bodies was widespread. Most ancient Greeks also believed that the semen contained all the ‘genetic’ material, and women were only incubators for babies.

D’oh! Glad I didn’t live in ancient times, then!

[Don_t_Panic]

@racepug

D’oh! Glad I didn’t live in ancient times, then!

I would think that the “deviant” element is about how it plays into the whole dom/sub dynamic of ancient sex. If you’re a man, you don’t want to be in a position where you can be seen as being dominated by a woman.

However, there’s at least one wall painting from Pompeii that seems to show a dude going at it (possibly NSFW). So there may still have been some options open for you.

From Wiki:

There is some evidence that women could hire male prostitutes to provide cunnilingus. Graffiti at Pompeii advertise the prices male prostitutes charged for cunnilingus, in the same price range as females performing fellatio; however, the graffiti could be intended as insults to the men named, and not as actual advertisements.

Also, again, there’s what people do one hand, and what they admit to doing on the other.

[tenacious_j]

Help me fight my own ignorance on this, please. I don’t want to get the thread off track but I’m naively wondering if the question should be “Why not?”

If homosexuality and/or nonchalance about where a man was putting it was as commonplace as it appears, on the surface, in ancient cultures, the reason why they did it seems like it’s basic human nature. Modern JudeoChristian religion condemns it, so it’s been repressed and fought for 2000 years, no?
Even today, psychology says there is a spectrum of sexuality and an urge to have sex whenever one can get it, within reason. So maybe it’s just that nobody had told the ancients that it was wrong, so what the hell? Why not?

[Don_t_Panic]

@tenacious_j

Help me fight my own ignorance on this, please. I don’t want to get the thread off track but I’m naively wondering if the question should be “Why not?”

Yeah, I’m with you. My first reaction to the thread title was to want to answer “why would you need a reason?”, but I was afraid that it would sound too glib.

[OneCentStamp]

@DaphneBlack

Also, for a man to perform cunnilingus was frankly deviant.

@racepug

D’oh! Glad I didn’t live in ancient times, then!

@Martian Bigfoot

I would think that the “deviant” element is about how it plays into the whole dom/sub dynamic of ancient sex. If you’re a man, you don’t want to be in a position where you can be seen as being dominated by a woman.

And the weird cultural hangup about that (in some cultures, at least) stuck around for millennia afterwards. Hell, a significant plot point in the first season of the Sopranos was the derision aimed at Junior when it came out that he had performed cunnilingus on his lady love. The implication, among the macho old school Italian-American guys, was that he had abased himself by “going down there.”

[Northern_Piper]

[QUOTE=Martian Bigfoot]

Also, again, there’s what people do one hand, and what they admit to doing on the other.
[/QUOTE]

Shouldn’t that be “what people do with one hand, and what they admit to doing with the other.”

[racepug]

@Martian Bigfoot

I would think that the “deviant” element is about how it plays into the whole dom/sub dynamic of ancient sex. If you’re a man, you don’t want to be in a position where you can be seen as being dominated by a woman.

However, there’s at least one wall painting from Pompeii that seems to show a dude going at it (possibly NSFW). So there may still have been some options open for you.

From Wiki:
Also, again, there’s what people do one hand, and what they admit to doing on the other.

Being hired to perform that particular act? Hmmmmm…intriguing. I wonder what that’s like? To be hired to do that thing. I mean - not EVERY woman who likes to have that done to her looks like the painted babes I’ve seen examples of from Pinterest! {On the other hand - when you’re doing that you’re not seeing a whole lot above the waist! )

[foolsguinea]

@Annie-Xmas

A friend of mine told me that the Greeks considered women “inferior” and only good for procreation. If you wanted to make love to an equal, a guy was the way to go.

I think that was just the pretentious weirdos who followed Socrates.

Plato was a bit strange on the subjects of love and marriage, but his student Aristotle tutored Alexander, so stuff from his Academy got copied and saved.