Why "West" needs to be "Best" for the whole world?

I agree with the general thrust but I think you could have identified the issues far more clearly (I don’t even know if English is your first language). IMHO, the driving force behind the west’s imposition of its values on eastern culture(s) is capitalism; capitalism is the religion, the great provider, the vehicle for everything that’s apparently good and worth having in our societies.

But capitalism is also voracious; a capitalism-free market has to be absorbed because it’s an opportunity; capitalism is like the ‘Borg’ in Star Trek, it will subsume, absorb, use, exploit because that’s what it ‘s designed to do. That’s why it tries to impose on eastern culture and society; it sees the equivalent of a vacuum.

And that’s also why the perception of it is so different in the east; you haven’t been absorbed, haven’t spent your entire lives being indoctrinated. Indeed, haven’t seen the benefits capitalism can bring.

It’s mixed bag in my view but a doctrinaire view of the west is no better than its eastern equivalent.

Also, it’s sometimes difficult to see the joins between western capitalism, western religion (that’s religion beyond capitalsim itself) and western-style democracy – people can confuse those and defend one when they actually mean another.

That’s why terminology like “west is best” isn’t accurate enough.

But that means then someone can give him an ass whoopin’ which he rightly deserves.

I don’t mean “living”. Of course it is different but that isn’t what causes such a culture shock. It is part of the attraction of traveling to come in contact with such differences.
I mean cultural difference. The way people reason, the way they interact, the language they use… Everything connected with etiquette and protocol and what is in between.
Well… I don’t think I can explain this very clearly.

You seem to confuse my questions and remarks with “feelings” I would have.
Like I said: I’m a child of two cultures from which one is “the West” as meant by “the West” I’m questioning here right now.
I did the greatest part of my studies in that “West” and the greatest part of that in the country of my mother.
So I know what I talk about when it comes to question “Westerners” and their habit to see themselves and what they stand for as being “the Best” and in addition “te Best for the World”.
Even within the limited context of a message board like this it still is an interesting experiment to question that and to discover how/why people reason like that.

As for the USA and “having a full picture” of it:
First of all: You need to live somewhere for a few decades to come somewhat near to be able to getting a “full picture”. And even then it is questionable. I doubt that every US’er has a “full picture” of the USA. The same goes for citizens of every country no matter where.

But I don’t “picture” the USA. I post comments on the USA as non US’er looking in from the outside.
This provides for an uncommon view. That is percieved rightly as intrusive and since I tend to picture things rather black/white because I fail the skill to express myself in this language adequately enough to add shades and colours, it makes people feel unconfortable and sometimes they even get a bit mad. :slight_smile:

I explained that several times but I still get showers of icecold water thrown at me and remarks of “being jealous” and “being bitter” and “backwards” and “US hater” and “fundamentalist”, whatever…
Such posts are meaningless but to be honest, they are somehow fun to read.
Salaam. A

Touche’.

Aldebaran, good points, all. Most countries are likely to believe they’re the best. I think that America, because it is so large and powerful, has the ability to flout this belief and is probably more capable than many nations to impose that belief upon others. I also agree that while travelling (as opposed to living somewhere), many people experience severe culture shock - in any country. I appreciate your taking the time to explain to me what you were trying to say.

Now I’m getting out of here - gotta drive to Indiana tonight for Thanksgiving. Eeech. I thoroughly enjoyed arguing with you!

:smiley:

Well, my city is full of non-Western immigrants. Is your city full of Americans who have come there to live? I’ve never known an American without family or religious ties to migrate to the ME permanently–my uncle tried, in the 70’s, to go to the University of Cairo. Even though he speaks Arabic perfectly, he couldn’t take the rampant corruption and the fact that he would not get good grades unless he bribed someone.

Oh, right, I forget, you won’t even let us know what country you’re in! Why not? Answer this, at least: does your father’s country have good relations with the U.S.?

Ryan_Liam:

[Moderator Hat ON]

Ryan, either stop insulting other posters or take it to the Pit.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

P.S. One last thing: although I’ve agreed with you that America as a country may feel superior to other countries, I will have to agree to disagree with you that Americans as individuals feel they are superior and think that everyone wants their way of life. In my experience, I’ve found that it’s just not true. But that’s just my experience talking.

Aldebaran, are you aware that vast regions of the United States are in fact deserts? Half of California, Oregon and Washington, most of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Utah, Colorado, Nevada, and parts of most other western states are deserts. There is no water around Los Angeles, so why is it that people there don’t have to walk for miles to get water, or drill to the other side of the earth?

Of course, the answer is that our political and economic system allows for the importation of water from other areas. Large scale irrigation is possible, because property rights are secure, people aren’t afraid that their expensive capital investments aren’t going to be ruined by some local warlord, or expropriated by some dictator’s flunky.

Capitalism requires a political context to work within, otherwise it is nothing but feudalism.

It seems to me that human rights, democracy, the rule of law, and an orderly arangment of the economic sphere are not solely western values, although they were originated by westerners. I don’t reject democracy as a foreign doctrine, even though it originated on a far-away continent thousands of years ago. I don’t reject the idea of limited government simply because it wasn’t invented by Americans. These ideas are the heritage of the world, not the property of one ethnic group. Let’s call this political, economic and social order liberal democracy as a short hand, making sure that we understand that it includes much more than simply voting.

If you really believe the rule of law, democracy, human rights, and capitalism are solely western ideas. Nor are dictatorship, arbitrary rule, feudalism, and tyranny non-western ideas, since you can find many examples of such things among western countries as recently as 30 years ago. Remember Francisco Franco? And I’m sure you remember all the dictatorships of the Eastern Bloc, which certainly qualify as “western”, Marxism of course being a western doctrine.

The West didn’t wake up one day and decide that every country should be a liberal democracy, most western countries were not liberal democracies. But a funny thing happened. Western countries that WERE liberal democracies prospered, those that were tyrannies stagnated or regressed. Eventually every western country became a liberal democracy because those that weren’t learned the value of liberal democracy from those that were. And non-western countries that adopted liberal democracy found themselves prospering as well. The more closely they conformed to liberal democracy, the better off they were.

Now, that is not to say that liberal democracy is the ultimate politico-socio-economic system. Just that we fallible humans haven’t come up with a better solution that works as well. Maybe we already have something better in the idea stages that just needs implementing.

But if a better system exists, it would have to demonstrate its superiority by being implemented somewhere. If said system is so fragile that it cannot spread or prosper in the context of a world liberal democratic order, then I would argue that it cannot be superior to liberal democracy, since it is not robust enough to work in the real world.

And of course, the 20th century has seen many theoretical alternatives to liberal democracy…Marxism, fascism, and many other utopian schemes to remake human nature. Given their record of miserable failure, you can forgive me if I ask that any other proposed social arangment be subjected to some sort of review before it is adopted uncritically.

Um… okay, I’m confused. I’m going to act on the assumption that Aldebaran does not hate “the west” and is simply asking some questions.

  1. First of all, ALL cultures tend to believe that their culture is the best. After all, it’s the one you were raised to believe in, right? ARE there any cultures that believe that they are NOT the best culture? Seems like that culture wouldn’t last very long.

  2. Is this why you see westerners as “arrogant?” Because they believe their culture is the best one? Seems to me I could point out any number of French, Arabs, Africans, and so on who get pretty “arrogant” about THEIR culture, as well.

  3. As to “wanting it to be accepted” around the world… are there any Americans here losing sleep because “Baywatch” is illegal in Saudi Arabia? Or because “As The World Turns” puts people to sleep in Kenya? Or because the Chinese think our action movies kind of suck? I doubt this. Other places have different cultures. They will accept or reject aspects of our culture, just as we accept or reject aspects of theirs. That’s how it works. I love Asian food, but have never developed a taste for certain Asian delicacies, including insects. And I really don’t think any Chinese are losing sleep because I’m not eating a lot of reptile meat…

  4. “Enforcing it on the rest of the globe.” I wasn’t aware we were rounding up Slavs and Chinese and forcing them into shopping malls or McDonalds at gunpoint or anything. Exactly how are we enforcing anything? Sure, there’s Iraq and Afghanistan… but we are not enforcing our culture on them, nor COULD we really. Hell, we’ll be doing well to install democracies that last more than six months, once we leave. And there are very large numbers of Americans who don’t think we ought to be there in the first place.

As far as culture goes, we don’t enforce jack. If your countrymen insist on BUYING hunks of our culture and importing it… or creating a local market for it… then perhaps those who buy it are to blame.

  1. “form the happyness of the population of the rest of the globe.” At this point, Aldebaran has lost me completely. What? I don’t understand this at all.

Jeez, this makes twice I’ve agreed with Shodan on something. Somebody kick me, quick…

Oh, yeah… and define “live like Americans.” True, many people do not want to live like Americans, including me. Eat pizza all the time? Watch every single episode of “Survivor?” Buy Britney Spears albums? Watch MTV? Go to movies just because certain famous people are in them? Indeed, this would be a great horror.

On the other hand if “living like Americans” means “living in a reasonably well-run, efficient representative democracy where even the occasional insane president can’t run the show for more than eight years, where hordes of corporate drones bend over backwards to meet my needs and desires and cut each other’s throats and their own prices to get my dollars, and it never occurs to anyone to call out the army to crush demonstrators, and the defense of my Constitutional rights is no further away than the nearest lawyer, and there are sharply defined limits, harshly enforced, to what a policeman, a politician, or a wealthy person can do to me…?”

Damn straight. Give me America, any day of the week.

But perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying. Could you define “living like an American” and “form the happyness of the population of the rest of the globe?”

Heck, Americans are undereducated rubes, but if for some reason I got driven out of my own idyllic nation, the U.S. would be my first choice.

Anyhoo, the U.S., among its other virtues, proves to be an effective scapegoat for all of Aldeberan’s belly-aching and complaining. If he has problems in his life; they’re not his fault, but rather the fault of all those arrogant “U.S.'ers”.

I’d have to point out that even if Aldeberan was in the United States, he could make these comments freely. If he were instead to go to any of several Middle-Eastern or African nations and complain at length about them… why, he’d have disappeared by now.

If I look those words up and find out it’s something bad, you’re in for it, mister.

It might help if you stop call us “US’ers.” Do those in the mid-east refer to Americans as US’ers or is this just something you do?

Marc

Alde:

I think a lot of the problems people have with your OP (and generally style of posting) is that you like criticize, but rarely offer alternatives. For the sake of argument, let’s say “The West” consists of Democracy, Free Markets, and Government by rule of law. Is this what you are harping, I mean posting, about?

Is your argument that all systems are equally “good”, or are you saying that other systems are superior? If the latter, can you tell us what system you advocate? And please note that I’m not talking about culture here. We’ve seen a wide variety of cultures around the world adopt a system characterized by the what I defined as “The West”, above.

i was born and raised in western society so its fair to say im pretty brainwashed, just like everyone else is in their respective culture.

Having said that, i tend to equate western society with

education for those who want it
literacy
social justice (social security, welfare, healthcare)
checks and balances on goverment
a criminal justice system that tries to be representative of the people
human rights
civil rights
democratic, representative government
scientific discovery

Essentially a view that the individual is the nexus of the government’s purpose. I think this view is very good.

Plus most scientific discovery has come from western society.

How exactly is western culture forced on the rest of the world?

Commodore Matthew Perry
Or George Bush

Aldebaran, compare and contrast the following countries, this should clear up most of your confusions:

1.) Drive from the Dominican Republic to Haiti, better yet, just drive near the border and look across.

2.) Go from South Korea up to North Korea

3.) For a nice historical example go from the West side of 1950’s Berlin to the East.

The sad reality is that “living like a Westerner” can mean anything you want, because in the West you are allowed to freely choose how you live!

This OP is just too easy to answer. There are just so many insanely obvious reasons why living like a Westerner is preferable to any other way of life. And once you realize you have a good life, why wouldn’t you want to help others live better?

As a final homework assignment, read the US Constitution or Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that about sums it all up. To make it easier for you, here’s a few snippets:

  • Freedom of the press
  • Freedom of speech
  • Freedom to practice your religion of choice and to not have the government impose a religion on you
  • Freedom of association

Aldebaran, is your country missing any of those?

I also think that you’re confusing the idea of “forcing Western culture on the rest of the world” with “insuring basic human rights for the rest of the world.”

Can you honestly sit there and say that the four “freedoms” I listed wrong and should be excluded in a society?

Personally, I think the reason Aldberan thinks the U.S. is so arrogant is simply because they’re too stubborn to just roll over and admit that he’s a genius and give him citizenship.

OK, I realize that some of these points have been made already by previous posters, but the OP made me so mad I have to jump in with my $0.02

First I’m a little confused whether the OP means America specifically or the west in general, which includes Europe and Canada and other suchlike countries. In fact I view “the West” as being more a set of beliefs rather than a geographical location, beliefs which originated in Europe, and later spread to the U.S. and other countries, like Canada or Australia. Even Japan might be considered a “western” country at this point.

Now the reason some of Us believe the west is the best is for the simple reason that the west is the best. I know this isn’t very PC, but the facts speak for themselves.

1: Democracy, Capitalism, and individual rights

The fact is that the west developed all these ideas which grant more autonomy to people than any other system. All these ideas grew out of the western feudal system through the magna carta, the various revolutions, the philosophies of Locke , Montesqieu (sp?) etc., the economic ideas of Ricardo and Smith, and more subtle influences. The idea that the state serves the individual and not the other way around is entirely of western origin, though other cultures are now embracing it. Democracy and Captialism, while deeply flawed, have guarenteed more prosperity and happieness than any other system. Given the fallible nature of human beings they are probably the best feasible system.

2: ** Science and technology**

While not exclusively western in origin–the middle east gave us hindu-arabic numerals and the chinese came up with a few nifty invention–the vast bulk of science comes from western nations. Between 1500 and 1900 the west developed all of the natural sciences, all modern agricultural and industrial techniques, and–most importantly–The scientific method. now science has spread around the world nad it is everyones property but its birthplace was in europe. As Steven Wienberg eloquently puts it “Fifty years from now the greatest physicist may be Maori or Xhosa, but their methods will be western in origin.”

These are the main things that distinguish the west from other cultures and are the gift of the west to humanity. There are other things too–the twelve tone scale, perspective in art, etc. but the two things above stand the west as far superior to every other culture in the planet. Sure there are horrible things with western origins: Marxism and Britney Spears spring to mind. But Democracy and Science outweigh them by several orders of magnitude.

I mean which would you rather live in. A society with tolerance individual liberty, economic autonomy or a society with honor killings, suicide bombers, rampant homophobia anti-semitism and oppression, governments that sway between corrupt leftist dictatorships and religious fanatics. Your choice.

And for everyone who complains about American pop culture, europeans as well as non-westerners: If you don’t like Hollywood movies or Mickey D’s so much Stop lining up for six blocks to go to them!!

Actually. I don’t think that this is the first time the OP has claimed that some unnamed, imprecisely defined body of “westerners” supposedly feels, in his words, “the West is best”. In response, I can only say that, I have never heard anyone I know from the US, Canada or Europe use any such phrase. One may hear Americans, or citizens of other countries, from time to time express the feeling that their country and culture is the best of all, but in my experience they usually a) have not traveled widely, or b) have mainly traveled to places that clearly have a lower average standard of living, or simply do not have facilities, food, transport or services that the person is used to.

Speaking as an American, my impression is that persons who feel the US is inherently superior do so because they also feel that they have managed to maximise their personal potential in a way that they believe they couldn’t in another culture or under another political system. If they wish that others were like them (and this is not nearly as universal a belief as Aldebaran seems to think, IMO) it is because a) it would make the rest of the world easier to understand for them than it is now, b) it would help them feel safer in a world of cultures that seem strange and vaguely dangerous to them.

Lastly, I find it rathar laughable that the OP would presume to accuse many hundreds of millions of people for feeling a presumed superiority to those outside their own cultures, when he himself so clearly believes that something in his upbringing and culture has made him superior to nearly everyone he interacts with here. It would help facilitate the debate if the OP would nominate a country or countries that he believes is in fact the “best”, and explain his reasons for doing so. Perhaps we could then compare reasons, and see what’s what here.