You guys are expecting firm data from Aldebaran “my post is my cite”…a.k.a. The Master? Get real. Its not his style. However, I also think that you guys are misreading him a bit. Ya, he’s anti-America, but I think that, to him, this is a serious question that he really doesn’t get, not simply another anti-US(ers) rant.
Anyway, to business…
From Aldebaran
Apparently in response to this:
From me
Define ‘democracy’?? Do you want that in 200 words or less?? lol. I think the definition of ‘democracy’ is pretty well understood, however MY definition is a representative government that is on a sliding scale that encompasses real representative socialism, through the European democracies, sliding to the British model of parlimentary government, past the American model, to the more esoteric governments of Japan and South Korea. In other words it encompasses a lot, but at its root is the representation of the people to their government. How this is helpful I have no idea, but your wish is my command.
Why this would be the good for the rest of the world (I assume this is what you were asking me)? Well because I’m encultured to think that…and through study I also believe that SOME form of democratic government WOULD be preferable to, say, a totalitarian government. If you want a complete disertaton on this point it will cost you big time though…you can no longer use USers in any post from here on out. 
From Aldebaran
Again, in response (I suppose) to this:
From me
Define ‘money culture’. Just kidding. Why do I think CAPITALISM is a better system that one where there IS no money? Well, by empirical examination of both systems I suppose for the purposes of this thread. I can look at the standard of living of, say, Canada vs a culture that has no concept of money…maybe a stone age tribe living in the Amazon (if any uncorrupted tribes still even exist there). Who has a better standard of living? Doesn’t take a cite to say that Canada wins out, hands down. Hell, lets just look at infant mortality statistics.
I think you have a very flawed understanding of capitalist systems to be honest. Europe is ALSO capitalist, just further towards the socialistic side on the sliding scale. Even in America though, where we are probably more towards the capitalist side than the socialist side on the sliding scale, its completely untrue that “In a capitalistic system the capital and the capitalist rules. That isn’t democratic at all to begin with.” and I would challenge you to prove its so. Not that I would EVER expect a cite from you, or anything but a bald statement (do the words “my post is my cite” ring a bell? :)), but if you are going to make such statements and you want to be taken seriously, someday you WILL have to back up your line. Probably won’t be today though…
From me
From Aldebaran
Damn good question. Honestly, partly because I’m conditioned to think this way. After all, I WAS raised in such a system. Empirically, I can look at countries that AREN’T social democracies and see that they AREN’T very successful. However, there are also countries that nominally ARE social democracies that are also fairly unsucessful, so you would have a valid point. However, I think that, bottom line, people are happier if they at least have the illusion that they control the governments that are over them…as opposed to being the peons of a totalitarian regime. The are happier if they feel (even if it IS illusion) that the government is somehow answerable to them. Would the be how ALL other peoples would feel? Damned if I know.
From Aldebaran
First part…what IS the ‘general West’ to you then? Frankly I’m not seeing it. There IS no monolithic ‘West’ out there. To you, is America the embodyment of the ‘West’?? Europe? The pacific rim ‘democracies’ (Japan, South Korea, etc)? All together? You would need to define exactly what this mythical ‘West’ is, that is ‘percieved as its ideals and cultura in general’ so we know what the hell you are talking about.
Second part…you think there aren’t many people (USers I’m sure) that understand that there is a difference between Europe and America?? If THATS what you are saying, you are unbelievably uninformed and totally clueless. I think the vast MAJORITY of Americans understand that there are vast differences between Europe and America…and vice versa. If you are saying something else here, please expand…you lost me.
Third part…just filler on your part, saying you ARE a capitalist, but you aren’t. Not relavant to the OP, and won’t touch it with a ten foot pole.
From Aldebaran
In response to:
From me
I see no ‘Westerners’ forcing their ideals on the rest of the world. I suppose you mean Iraq (ok, I KNOW you meant Iraq). I don’t see the US ‘forcibly’ imposing its ideals or culture on Iraq, but I conceed you might see things differently.
The deeper question though is: IS the ‘West’ forcing their ideals, culture, systems and government on a resisting world. I’m not seeing it to be honest. Do you have examples of this? (lol, I’m not REALLY expecting a cite from you btw…more a retorical question).
I see the vast majority of ‘the world’ snapping up the parts of Western culture that appeal to them, modifying it, repackaging it, taking the parts they like, rejecting the parts they don’t, and integrating it INTO their culture. I remember seeing a picture in the pre-invasion Afghanistan of several kids in a remote village wearing Bon Jovi tee shirts. When I was in Terhan (ya, fancy that) I remember seeing people wearing Levis. I saw The Matrix in Bangladesh (without English subtitles btw)when I was working for Williams in India. I ate at a fine french restaurant…in Egypt. I’ve eaten Italian in Japan AND China. On and on, I could give a page worth of anacdotal examples (for anyone who askes, my post is my cite…thank you very much).
The POINT is, at none of these places were the locals being held at gun point to eat the food, watch the movies, wear the clothes, etc…they were interested in such thing VOLUNTARILY. They WANTED them. The other side of this is, they took the listed forms of ‘Western’ culture and MODIFIED them to their own cultures…integrating them into their cultures and making them their own. The took the good, or the parts they liked at any rate, and rejected the bad or the parts they DIDN’T like…and made it unique to themselves.
I don’t expect a response from you, Alde. If I get one, I’m sure I’ll be branded simply one more ignorant USer anyway. But you might want to at least THINK about what I’m trying to say. The ‘West’ ISN’T in fact shoving either their culture or their ideals down the throats of a resisting world. In fact, a lot of the world is very interested in observing the ‘West’, borrowing the elements they like, rejecting the ones they don’t, and making something that is unique to them…a melding of ‘the West’ with their own unique cultures. And thats a GOOD thing, IMO.
Reguards,
XT
