Why won't the Creationists talk turkey?

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No mistakes as far as I could tell. I had a quibble with this:

“Within any particular host, they will eventually die by mutation and become nonfunctional. By jumping to a new host, they get a new lease on life before dying out in the old host.”

I’m not sure I see his logic. It’s a bit like saying that if you make a copy of a copy of a copy until you end up with a tenth generation copy, it will look crappy, but if you switch copiers halfway through, it will look much better.

I should also point out one bit of info that the article left out: the nuclear receptors (such as estrogen receptor) which recognize target sequences found in Alu transposons exert their effects in part by unpackaging genes from chromatin, although I’m unsure if that’s a meaningful connection.

To some extent, yes. In Drosophila there are transposons called P-elements which make it impossible for P-element infected female fruit flies to mate with uninfected males (or vice versa- I studied this a couple of years ago.) P-elements spread quickly through the population, and if two are introduced at roughly the same time, they can split the population into two new species which can’t interbreed. After that, the two species can diverge from each other and potentially become very different. P-elements apparently spontaneously appear fairly often in the wild; if you go out and catch some Drosophila in your kitchen and compare them with Drosophila from a geneticist’s “fly room,” you’ll find that the flies in the kitchen have P-elements which the ones from the fly room don’t have, because the fly room flies are descendants of flies captured a few decades ago.

-Ben

Let me just point out that this thread is now in the triple digits, and not only have we had no serious attempt from any creationist to answer the eleven questions, I don’t think we’ve had any creationist say that they could even understand the questions (although we have some evolutionists who can.)

So let me raise the stakes a bit. I don’t have $100,000 (or however much it is) lying around to offer as a prize like Kent Hovind does. I will, however, read the book of your choice if you can provide scientific answers to the eleven questions, operating within a framework of special creation of individual kinds. (I also stipulate that it not be a book I’ve read before. I wouldn’t even include that stipulation, but I’m aware of the fact that some creationists could potentially- if only in a very technical sense- meet my stipulations by presenting creationist schemes which make creationism fit the facts by watering it down with 99% evolution.)

I also make a few further stipulations:

  • As I said before, the explanation has to be scientific. You can’t explain things away by saying “God likes it that way.” You must explain why God likes it that way.

  • No quotefests. You can’t answer a question about protein homology by giving me a quote from some high muckey-muck saying, “homology is bunk.” If you want to claim that protein homology is bunk, you have to give a detailed explanation of why the evidence for protein homology is misleading.

  • Your explanation must fit the available evidence at least as well as evolutionist explanations do.

(Can the evolutionists present think of any reasonable stipulations I’ve missed?)

Think about what I’m offering you, folks. If you can answer the eleven questions, then you will have already proven to me that creation science is far, far more reasonable than I ever expected. At that point, a single book on your religion might be just enough to win me as a convert.

Bear in mind that just because you can’t answer my questions doesn’t mean that you can’t ask creation science experts to help you out. Go to http://www.rae.org, http://www.carm.org, http://www.answersingenesis.org, or whatever your favorite website is and ask them for a hand. They won’t be able to answer the questions either, because- let’s face it- creation science is a false teaching, but it can’t hurt to ask them.

-Ben

No, not at all. Theological arguments are about theology, though. When they extend to attempts at providing a framework of understanding of areas beyond humans’ relationships with God or each other, then nontheological rules have to apply.

If a theological argument can explain the function of transposons, fine. If it can’t, it’s flawed. Are you saying it can’t?

But can the intellectual framework you describe as simple “logic” provide any greater understanding than that? Can the thought processes involved be applied to other cases and provide further illumination there? Sorry, if it cannot go any deeper than “God made it that way”, then it does not provide any greater understanding that Neanderthals had wondering about fire.

Saying “Keep the mind open” is fine, and healthy. But it’s not useful if there’s nothing beyond to keep it open to.

If the discussion starts with Genesis, claiming it isn’t about religion is pretty shaky. Further, sorting through the pile of facts available to find evidence capable of being interpreted as supporting some predetermined conclusion, filtering out inconvenient facts, isn’t science but theology. Science works the other way around.

See, this (I think) is Ben’s point. Creationists pull people into these debates and “beat” them without using religion. The only time they get whooped is when they try to debate scientific creationism on its own merits without the Bible, or to debate whether creationism is actually a science. See the Gish/Zindler debate on infidels.org. Gish and associates are very good at picking their debates, and knowing which direction to take them in order to make their opponent look bad. If they are debating a geologist, they will hit points of biology, and with a biologist they will harp on points of geology. At numerous times during the debate with Zindler, Gish tries to take the debate into “here are things wrong with evolution”. Zindler resists and doesn’t even give those questions answers, as he is debating whether creationism is a science.

To me, it looks like this kind of challenge, offered by Ben is turning the tables. Offer a narrow set of evidence that both highly technical and gives good evidence for evolution. Stick to this set of evidence. Ask a creationist to interpret this set of evidence in a way which shows creation and not evolution. Don’t stray to dust on the moon or irregularities of the fossil record. It is kind of like the Hovind challenge in reverse.

Ben: Your description of hybrid dysgenesis mediated by P-elements is basically correct. P-elements first invaded the Drosophila melanogaster population around 50 years ago, but our fly stocks were first standardized in the 1910s. We have worked hard since then to prevent exogenous P-elements from entering our stock collection. Rubin and Spradling engineered P-elements to work as a tool of genetic manipulation in the 1980s. Wild-type P-elements encode transposase, so they hop. They can be made genetically stable by removing the gene encoding transposase. We can insert our gene of interest or do any one of a number of things with the gutted P-element. We microinject them with an exogenous source of transposase, and lo and behold we have transgenic flies.

My point is, we’ve allowed the “scientific” creationists to convince us all that discussions of evolution are somehow fodder for “Great Debates”, whereas questions about the atomic theory of matter or the heliocentric Solar System are “General Questions”–that the questions of whether evolution has taken place, or what the age of the Earth is, are somehow inherently “controversial” questions, like “What is justice?” or “Is there a God?” The age of the United States is not a religious question; neither is the age of the Solar System. The question of who my great-great-grandfather is, and who (or what) the great-to-the-nth-power forebears of the human species were, are empirical questions, which can be answered with greater or lesser degrees of certainty. (Off the top of my head, I couldn’t name any of my great-great-grandparents. And even if I looked it up, the official records might be wrong–perhaps one of the Mesdames Buckner or Bright or Huckabee or Sanford slipped one over on her husband. But it’s not a question of “faith”, either.)

“Scientific” creationists are, at least to some extent, making empirically testable (“scientific”) claims. It’s just that their claims have already been tested, and been shown to be false.

Not all of us, not by any means. Not even all that large a percentage of us, I’ll wager. When we’re discussing the subject in “Great Debates”, it’s in the tradition of Fighting Ignorance. But I do agree in general that, due to our patience, creationists have been allowed too much latitude in claiming to be scientific and intellectually respectable, when they’re neither.

Should alchemy be considered a competing theory to chemistry, or astrology equal to astronomy? Should they be taught in our schools? There are people who have strong faith in both, after all. But they both have no more solid an intellectual basis than does creationism.

If I might add to the excellent comments that have already been made:

Part of the problem is that “creation science” is really Potemkin science. There’s really nothing there. Let’s look at a real science, like chemistry: there’s a lot of stuff there, like hybrid orbitals and lactones, that most of the public doesn’t really know a lot about. It affects them, since you can make medicines and plastics based on it, but there’s a lot of “behind-the-scenes” which most people don’t see unless someone explains it in a popular work.

In creation “science”, OTOH, doesn’t go much deeper than what the public sees, because it’s really a PR campaign instead of a scientific quest. Back in the 1970’s creation science talked about fossils (Evolution: The Fossils Say No!) because you saw big dinosaurs in the museums and you heard about Lucy on the news. There was a lot more to biology besides fossils, but creationists didn’t bother, because nobody was asking embarassing questions about much other than fossils. Then the evolutionists started talking about humans and apes being 98% genetically identical, and the creationists whipped up an explanation on the spot: similar organisms require similar proteins. Why didn’t creationists do any work on genetics back when they were talking about fossils? Because the public didn’t know about genetics yet, and there wasn’t any need to bamboozle people on a subject that they didn’t know about anyway.

Of course, the latest round of creationist explanation is wrong too. Similar organisms don’t have similar proteins; similarity of proteins correlates with the evolutionary relationships between organisms, not with their overall similarity. And, as I pointed out, there’s a whole world of transposons and whatnot that the creationists- even the pundits- don’t really know anything about. Just look at this webpage:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/

If you look at the creationist reply, the creationist doesn’t know how to handle it. He can’t go back in the creationist scientific literature and look up “pseudogenes,” because no evolutionist had mentioned pseudogenes yet, and thus there’s no reason why any creation “scientist” would have even bothered to learn what they are. So he has to flail around like a drowning man, trying to find something, anything, that will explain them away. I find this comment telling:

“At first glance, this appears to be a strong argument for evolution. Indeed, I found it troubling for a while.”

What- you found the existence of pseudogenes to be “troubling for a while”? Didn’t you learn about them in grad school like all the evolutionist scientists? Shouldn’t you guys have explained- or at the very least studied!- the basic facts of biology long ago, before any mainstream scientist realized that pseudogenes would make a handy argument for evolution? I guarantee you, if PBS ran a popular series akin to “Cosmos” which explained the workings of DNA and the genome and how they relate to evolution, the creationists would suddenly strike out into the wilderness of molecular genetics (a wilderness already heavily settled by evolutionists, mind you) and present us with a wealth of creationist explanations for introns and transposons and all the other words on the tips of the public’s tongues. Until then, they’re just not interested.

Here’s another illustrative site:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

If you read about how Gish responded to the arguments presented on this site, you’ll see that Gish plainly has never heard of the genetic workings of the vertebrate immune system. Now, let me give you an idea of whether or not Gish should have heard of this Nobel-winning research before. Back when I was an undergrad I learned about the genetics of the vertebrate immune system in my biochemistry class. I learned about it again in protein structure class. Then, as a grad student, I took a molecular cell biology class, and we went over it again. I also read a molecular genetics textbook, and read about it again there. I recently read an immunology textbook, and obviously I read about the genetics of immunity there. I also read a textbook on protein evolution which discussed it, and I’m currently reading an evolution and development textbook which also has a section on it. I may be missing a few textbooks here; I’d be hard pressed to point to many (or any) textbooks in my field which didn’t cover the topic in detail.

Remember, Gish is a bit of a surprise to many evolutionists because his PhD in biochemistry didn’t come from a diploma mill; it came from Berkeley. But does Gish know basic molecular biology which students these days learn as undergrads? No, he doesn’t, and I don’t know how he avoided it. Maybe he just quit reading after he got his doctorate. And even more tellingly, when he tries to critique Max’s arguments regarding the genetics of immunity, Gish doesn’t run to the nearest genetics or immunology textbook, read up on the subject, and then present a devastating critique based on a full and informed understanding of the subject. Instead, clearly working purely from what he heard the evolutionist say, he says that if all this stuff about genetics were true, the body would produce antibodies against itself. Never mind that if Gish were to randomly pick up a textbook in his own field, there’s a 90% chance that it would tell him that the thymus screens out autoimmune antibody-producing cells. Why doesn’t he crack a book? I don’t know, but maybe, deep down, part of the reason is that he knows that most of his audience will never bother to find out anything about the subject beyond what the evolutionists have already presented, so why address any facts that aren’t already in the evolutionist argument?

And that, my friends, is a big part of why I issued the 11-question challenge. Creationists just can’t explain them, because there’s no explanation there yet. It’s not just about the fact that the evidence which I ask the creationists to explain in my 11 questions constitutes particularly good evidence for evolution. It’s that words like “intron phase” and “exon class” probably have never been printed in any creationist work yet, because the public at large hasn’t heard them used to defend evolution.

-Ben

That’s just it, Ben - the creationists aren’t trying to advance a coherent, predictive conceptual framework of their own; they’re simply trying to poke holes in another one they desperately want not to be true.

Not only have they been allowed to misundertand and misuse the meanings of the words “science” and “theory”, but they’ve even induced many of us (such as you, in the above post) to call evolution theory an “-ism”, as if it were just a competing branch of theology. That crap has got to stop.

Maybe the questions ought to be simpler, on a layman’s level. For instance, I’d be happy to have them explain why God would have created me with an appendix. Evolution can explain why it got there, and even why it’s still there, but can theology?

On page 46 of my hardbound copy of Hawking’s A Brief History Of Time he says “The Catholic Church, on the other hand, seized on the big bang model and in 1951 officially pronounced it to be in accordance with the Bible.” On page 116, he further reports that in 1981 he “attended a conference on cosmology organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican…At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God.”

I’m not particularly religious. I have no problem recognizing parallels between the Evolution discription of the Creation and the Genesis. Sure, the time span is different, but if you read the days of creation as epochs or stages, I think it sort of rings not untrue. Until you get to the Garden of Eden. To me, that’s crappola.

But I’m surprized by this RC acceptance of the big bang and evolution. Unless I’m reading more into this than I should, aren’t they pretty much implying that the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve is so much, um, a morality tale and parable and not fact? If that’s true (and yeah, that’s what I think myself) what does this mean for the concept of ‘original sin’? I’m not a Christian, never have been, but to many Christian denominations isn’t original sin a key tenet of their faith?

Back to your thread which is already in progress.

Ranger: This is going on my half-recollections from high school religion classes, but IIRC the Roman Catholic Church no longer teaches original sin (and hasn’t since Vatican II). Once the leadership that formed their views before Vatican II dies out, I think the RCC will be one of the most liberal Christian churches out there. If you’re interested in where it might go, take a look at the works of Thomas Merton or David Steindl-Rast.

I find this troubling in itself…

Yeah, but that’s just what the Pope said. He’s not a cosmologist. Actually, if you read A Brief History of Time, you’ll find that one of the theories put forth at that conference was that the Big Bang had never happened (or something like that; it’s been a long time since I read that book).

By that reasoning, if the Pope considers of all existence to be a creation of God, then nothing in existence should be studied, irrespective of where the phenomonon of existence being studied is on the cosmic timeline.

And why would God not want us to know of His creative processes, anyway?

I must admit, the “explore the universe, except for the Big Bang” position has a little bit of Bluebeard in it, to me.

-Ben

Er…well, you’re not going to catch me defending the Pope on this one.

I don’t think this is correct. I remember reading an article by Stephen Jay Gould where he talks about the RCC’s position on evolution. Summed up, their position was that evolution is ok as long as it doesn’t mess with original sin. The whole doctrine of the Immaculate Conception depends on original sin existing, but Mary being free of it. And what I know about Christianity, it is a fairly important part of the religion. Everyone needs Jesus because of original sin. I think it is unlikely that they dropped it.

But I could be wrong. Any Catholics know for sure?

My granddad likes to talk to me about the economy.

He’s a bright man. He made sound investments in his life and reaped the rewards. He is logical and consistent and puts forward arguments that proceed intelligently.

However he doesn’t know anything about economics.

This means that he gets a lot wrong. He fundamentally misunderstands some concepts. He gets mixed up. His premises are “common sense” based rather than empirically based, or based on explicit axioms.

It’s difficult for me to explain things to him, because I can’t whip out a blackboard and start with “lesson 1 - scarcity and demand”.

I hope you see the parallel. When you have devoted a lot of your life to really studying a subject and you know a lot about it, it’s frustrating to have someone who knows, in effect, nothing about the subject come along and make dogmatic statements based on incorrect arguments.

So I think that Ben is being entirely reasonable. He knows a lot about the evolution process. If you want to dogmatically declare that what he knows is bunk, you have to know all about what he knows. Otherwise you’re just being ignorant. To say “well I don’t understand what you said BUT…” is just betraying that ignorance.

pan

“Why Won’t the Creationists talk Turkey?”

Because we would sound silly going, “gobble gobble gobble.” :smiley: