You missed this in the OP:
Dinsdale doesn’t support Trump. He’s saying he might well support a liberal president he regards as loathsome scum if they were as effective in getting liberal ideals enacted as he thinks Trump has been in getting conservative ideals enacted.
Some people identify with a party that they actually don’t support, but even though they don’t support it, they stubbornly refuse to change how they identify because “the party left ME.”
Right. If the choice were between someone like Mitt Romney (who seems a decent Republican) and some bloviating, narcissistic, 30-Tweets-a-day braggart liberal who would get left-leaning judges onto the courts pronto, get universal single-payer healthcare passed, abolish voter ID nationwide, establish a path to citizenship for all undocumented migrants, sharply increase taxes on big corporations and the wealthy, make all public universities tuition-free, cut America’s carbon emissions in half, etc., why would any liberal voter in their right mind ***not ***vote for the latter?
Abolish voter ID? Voter ID has one purpose and one purpose only- minority voter suppression.
*Kentucky’s heavily Republican legislature voted Tuesday to require voters to show a government-issued photo ID, overriding Democratic Gov. Andy Beshear’s veto in the process.
Meanwhile, if a Kentucky voter heads to the state’s webpage hoping to learn how to obtain such an ID, they will encounter a message telling them ID-issuing offices are closed.
Strict voter ID laws are increasingly common in Republican-controlled states, and left-leaning groups like students, low-income voters, and voters of color are especially less likely to have the ID that these laws require. Although voter ID’s policy proponents often argue that the measure is necessary to combat voter fraud at the polls, such fraud is so rare that it is virtually nonexistent.
While voter ID laws, at best, are a solution in search of a problem, Kentucky’s new law could prove to be a particularly potent attack on the right to vote during a pandemic.
Voter ID laws serve no legitimate purpose
The ostensible function of a voter ID law is to prevent someone from impersonating another voter in order to cast a ballot in their name. But numerous studies and investigations show that the primary form of voter fraud addressed by these laws, impersonation fraud at the polls, is only slightly more common than unicorns.*
Republicans have been caught flatly admitting it.
Thanks Tamerlane and Velocity. I guess I coulda been clearer.
That’s assuming that the never-Trumpers see Trump as effective- and I’m not so sure they do. Now it may be that a significant number of Trump voters were going to vote for any Republican over a Democrat based on a single issue ( abortion, immigration, whatever) and couldn’t care less about any other " Republican" values - but it’s equally true that there are going to be some number that don’t prioritize any one issue over everything else and aren’t going to support him because he nominates/appoints some judges he believes are pro-life* when they disagree with nearly everything else he does and says.
Now granted, I live in NYC and may have had more of an opinion about Trump earlier than people in other parts of the country did - but the one thing I couldn’t understand is why anybody believed he would actually do anything he promised unless it benefited him personally in some way. Let me change that- unless he believed it would benefit him personally , whether it would or it wouldn’t. Sure, he’s doing certain things that will make certain groups of his voters happy now - but he’s got another election coming. Let’s see what he does after that. I’m sure a large group of his supporters would have been happy if he had fired every undocumented worker on the payroll at any of his companies in 2016 - but there were seven that got fired in Dec 2019, a year after the Trump Organization promised to fire any workers who were in the US illegally. I suspect plenty will be hired after Election Day 2020 - because at that point, it doesn’t really matter if he loses popular support.
I hope I wouldn’t. All those things are nice and good, but things we could live without (except the carbon emissions). We ***need ***a competent and respectable person as POTUS. I’d rather take my chances we would get acceptable policies from Jeb Bush or Romney, then get everything we want from a corrupt asshole like a democratic Trump.
ETA. Ideally the Democratic Trump would make it through the primaries.
I realize that to some degree we’re getting hypotheticals in response to hypotheticals here, so I’m not necessarily saying Velocity doesn’t get this, but I just want to make clear:
Given Real-World Trump’s actual track record, the hypothetical “Mirror Universe” choice for a Never-“Drumpfer” liberal Democrat is more like a choice between someone like Mitt Romney (who seems a decent Republican) and some bloviating, narcissistic, 30-Tweets-a-day braggart liberal who does get left-leaning judges onto the courts pronto; but doesn’t get universal single-payer healthcare passed (Real-World Trump, of course, never did “repeal Obamacare”, even when the Republicans had the White House and both the House of Representatives and the Senate); causes “red states” across the country to really dig in their heels on voter ID and pass even more restrictive voting laws, and makes the other side even more hell-bent on opposing a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants (I think it’s fair to say Real-World Trump has caused the Democrats to move sharply to the “left” on immigration); does sharply increase taxes on big corporations and the wealthy (Real-World Trump and the Republicans did manage to enact a big tax cut for the wealthy); but doesn’t make all public universities tuition-free or cut America’s carbon emissions in half or any of that stuff–in fact, thanks to the intensely polarizing and divisive Alternate-Universe Drumpf presidency, eliminating public universities altogether is now a reasonably mainstream idea in the Alternate-Universe Republican Party, and even among the American public in general (mirroring support for various progressive ideas like raising the minimum wage or tuition-free public college).
The question then becomes, should a sane and responsible liberal or progressive voter continue to support Alternate-Universe President Drumpf? Given the ways in which Alternate-Universe President Drumpf departs from professed core progressive values (he’s a notorious misogynist, and kind of racist too; his commitment to progressive ideas on social issues like abortion and guns, while very loud and kind of shrill, is historically pretty shallow and maybe not really entirely trustworthy–and he hasn’t actually gotten any real legislation passed on those issues–and his protectionist economic ideas–“Trade wars are very easy to win!”–are by no means universally accepted on the left any more than they are on the right); given the ways his general administrative incompetence and unpleasant personality (to put it very mildly) are damaging the Democratic Party and progressive “brands”, I would have to say there’s a real good case (even from a progressive P.O.V.) that “Hey, look at all these liberal judges! And how about that wealth tax!” just isn’t going to cut it.
And then we have a massive global pandemic (along with an economic meltdown as a result of the measures necessary to try to contain said pandemic), and it turns out the tendency of Alternate-Universe President Drumpf to fill his administration with a.) close family members and b.) left-wing ideologues who make certain parts of the progressive base happy–Alternate-Universe President Drumpf has an administration that really “Looks like America!” with lots of women and LGBT people and racial and ethnic minorities, but unfortunately most of them have no real-world political or governmental experience and are utterly incompetent at their jobs*–is a Really Bad Idea when the country is faced with a major crisis like a global pandemic and resulting economic meltdown.
(*I am not saying you couldn’t have an administration filled with women and LGBT people and racial and ethnic minorities who were also competent administrators–just as heterosexual cis-gender white males can be competent administrators–just that Alternate-Universe President Drumpf has a pronounced tendency to pick women and LGBT people and racial and ethnic minorities whose only real qualifications are blind personal loyalty to Alternate-Universe President Drumpf.)
Both from a “Country before Party” standpoint and from a “Oh, God, the Democratic Party is eventually going to be utterly hammered over this mess!” I think Alternate-Universe Democrats really ought to dump Drumpf before he can do any more damage.
And, therefore, I would argue that even from a conservative P.O.V. the support of the Real-World Republican Party for Real-World Donald Trump is, in the long term, going to be a Very Bad Idea.
But to be fair, we have a realistic choice between two people for President. If I am a conservative Republican (which I am) I don’t disagree with much of the criticism of Trump. I really don’t. I think some of the stuff is overblown, but I think he is an arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all who has really risen above his pay grade. I would be much happier with a more mainstream Republican.
So what do I do, vote for Biden? So we can have higher taxes, a liberal Supreme Court, and more gun control? Try to convince me why I should do that.
For all the flaws Trump has, Biden (to me and my political persuasion) has them X10 only differently.
Further, for the only time in my life, I voted for Obama in 2008. I believe that the economic crisis at the time required a Democrat instead of a lukewarm Republican. But that got me Kagan and Sotomayor and Obamacare. Was that a good decision for me and my interests?
I mean, if we had 20 candidates to choose from, and I still supported Trump, then I think any criticism of me or others that voted for Trump would be warranted. But we only have two.
Biden will reduce your taxes if you are middle class. Trumps middle class tax cut was mostly a lie- the middle class cuts were temporary. The cuts for the rich are ongoing. There is no reason to assume taxes will increase.
Yes, Biden is in favor of restricting assault guns. So is trump. Bidens laws will have to get thru Congress. Obama didnt get any new gun laws passed.
SCOTUS wont become Liberal. There are five GOP justices and four Dem. One of those will retire as soon as there is Dem president, that will leave the balance the same. Next two are likely Breyer and Thomas- again leaving the court with the same balance.
Trump has killed thousands of Americans with his Covid bungling, likely to end up being tens of thousands. Maybe hundreds of thousands.
For a long time Trump said he was a Dem and he was also pro choice for a long time. Those are 2 reasons some GOP members don’t like him.
Sure, if he’s running against another GOPer. But how is it relevant if he’s running against someone who still says he’s a Dem, and still says he’s pro-choice?
I think that ultimately, Trump is damaging the Republican party brand, and that this will have negative effects on the party in the future. If I’m a person whose agenda is promoted by the Republican party (I’m not), then I think I would be concerned about my agenda being associated with Trump’s, and the backlash against Trump will become a backlash against my agenda. I believe that for this reason, many rational Republicans don’t care much for Trump and would not vote for him.
No rational person I’ve spoken with on the subject, regardless of their party affiliation, has expressed one iota of support for Trump. Not publicly, anyway.
I agree with just about everything MEBuckner says in post #28.
The question wasn’t “What will make a Republican not vote for Trump” it’s “Why would a Republican dislike Trump.”
For some the answer to both questions will be the same. For some it means they won’t vote for him. For others they will hold their nose and pull the lever to not have a President Biden.
You can dislike him and still vote for him because you think the democrat is worse. We have had page after page of posters saying that they don’t like Biden but will still vote for him.
We have threads upon threads of people saying that they will vote for Biden after comparing the real problems with Biden with the real problems, and we have have threads upon threads of people that will vote for Trump after extremely downplaying or even ignoring what Trump has said and done over the years while letting their imaginations run wild as to what Biden may choose to do in the future. To try to say that both sides are the same because “they both do it” is like saying that getting shot in the foot is the same thing as getting shot in the head because both sides involve bullets.
“comparing the real problems with Biden with the real problems” should be “comparing the real problems with Biden with the real problems of Trump”. Tried to fix it and I couldn’t get back in.
Trimp IS the GOP brand now, replacing the Teahead, Dubya, and Raygun brands. Time and (hopefully inexorable) demographics will destroy the GOP when they can no longer disenfranchise, suppress, and court-pack to maintain power. Individual GOPs may dislike Trimp but if they go public they’re cast aside, politically gutted. Sucks to be Romney.
You’ve got a tiger by the tail there, folks. Hang on or else. Enjoy the ride.
What?? Who said both sides are the same? That’s a ridiculous way of interpreting what I said.
It certainly is the brand now. That will change for better or (hopefully not) worse in four years especially if Trump loses. The smoke filled room wants the party to be one way but it always turns on who eventually comes out on top. It’s Trump now but won’t be forever.
I am a conservative and I can’t stand Trump. I never supported him in the primary. I am absolutely convinced his candidacy was a political stunt, he never thought in his wildest dreams he’d get the nomination, and when he did he was as shocked as anyone else that he won the Presidency. He’s like that dog that catches up to the car he’s chasing and then doesn’t know WTF to do now that he’s succeeded.
He’s completely full of shit, he’s a level 10 narcissest, and over the years he’s talked out of both sides of his mouth more than John Mccain did.
The only person I know of more narcissistic than Trump is my father-in-law. It goes beyond ego and self confidence. Every single thing they do is for their glory and power. They don’t care who it hurts or what anyone else thinks. They truly believe they are a sort of superman. they are the only one that can fix or accomplish something. Any dissent, no matter how small, is attacked viciously and rabidly. And their glory is enhanced by tearing others down, even their allies. If you have ever dealt with someone on a regular basis that has this level of narcissism you come to see it as a form of complete insanity. Those that don’t become toadies of the narcissist. They develop a feeling of well being because they are associated with someone of such incredible importance.
And what’s the Democratic remedy? First it was Hillary and now Touchy feely Uncle Joe. Yeah, they’ll fix it. :rolleyes:
Thing is that regarding Trump and narcissists you came with more than a dozen items that are reprehensible in the extreme, Joe seems to have an issue with just one.
Biden is still a better choice.