Right. But it is a tad easier to - say - stop going to a particular church, than to renounce your citizenship and move to a different country.
I remember when our church - UU - was making a big deal out of being designated a “Welcoming Congregation” back in the 90s. My wife and I were excoriated for saying that we weren’t particularly interested in attracting gays, as much as we were in attracting UUs - preferably Humanists. If any LGBTQ person were looking for a accepting religious community, UU would certainly show up on any cursory search.
At the time 2 guys lived next door to us. They had mentioned some of the BS they got. We mentioned UU as a possible religion, and they responded that they were not interested, b/c they were Catholic.
My point was, we were trained and socialized just to put up with being in a group that didn’t want us. There WAS no country where it was just okay to be gay. There WAS no church where it was okay to be gay (at least, not that I knew of at the time). I became a neopagan, though quite an agnostic one, working on a spirituality that works for me, but incorporating some Catholic saints.
Many denominations have been slowly accepting homosexuality for the past few decades (since, say, 1969, since the Stonewall riots are often consider an important turning point). Many organizations have been slowly accepting homosexuality over that time. Many countries have been slowly accepting homosexuality over that time. It’s quite possible that the Catholic church will slowly become more accepting of it.
Yeah - I guess that’s another thing I had difficulty with. I can do whatever I want, but so long as I say, “Oops - my bad!” a second before I die, I’m given the halo and wings. Especially if it is something you don’t think is wrong, and that you intend to continue to keep doing.
And the idea (back then) that newborn babies were somehow deficient and would not get into heaven. (Pretty sure they edited out Limbo.)
I wonder if my mom ever confessed her “sin” of using birth control before she died…
I know religion is weird, to the extent otherwise ostensibly rational people believe in irrational shit. And folk who otherwise claim to have control over their thoughts, expressions, and actions profess that this particular belief is NOT volitional. But when it comes down to a belief situation that proclaims that I am lesser, and when there are readily available alternatives. Just a weird way that some people act.
It’s not quite that easy under Catholic doctrine. For absolution and salvation, it’s not the formal act of the confession that matters most; it’s the honest repentance. The Church accepts sinners,but for forgiveness of the sin it’s necessary to repent it.
Another thing to keep in mind is that people often don’t think of Rome as “The Church” so much as they think of the priests in their parish. I’ve known some extremely loving, kind, tolerant priests. Hell, I’m not sure they believed all the bullshit stuff.
They’re the type who (back in the limbo days) would have assured a grief-stricken mother whose baby died before baptism that of course her child was in heaven. “Our Lord loves us as his own children. There’s no doubt your baby is with Him right now, and we’ll all be together again someday.”
I’ve witnessed such a heartbreaking exchange (the mother of a suicide). That priest was awesome, someone whose first concern was the spiritual health and comfort of his fellow humans, and not who did or didn’t get punished for their sins.
Anyway, for a lot of people one kind, loving priest can be enough to more than offset all that “stuff from Rome.” Those stuffy cardinals don’t impact their lives in any way. Father Bill who stops by to see if your sick mom is okay does.
Of course it is not quite that easy. You have to MEAN it. But if the nicest damned gay person dies without repenting the sin of who they fucking are - through no fault or intention of their own, it’s fiery eternity for that poor bastard.
So do gay Catholics think they will have to repent on their deathbeds? Or do they regularly confess their sin, only to have to do it again and again - and hope they don’t die in-between “gayness”.
It’s also entirely possible to identify with a religion while disagreeing with that religion on some of its doctrine. People do it all the time. My grandfather married a second wife while his first wife was still alive. Although this is not doctrinally acceptable, he (and his donations) meant that he was able to compromise and receive confession and everything. He was certainly a believing, practicing Catholic, but also ignored the bits that he disagreed with. I don’t see why a gay person couldn’t do exactly the same thing.
I can’t be certain, not being gay - but I suspect they don’t think either of those things. They most likely believe the Church teaching is wrong on some level - either that it’s not a sin at all or that God wouldn’t make someone gay and then punish them for acting on it.
Lots of Catholics go to church every Sunday even while using contraception, without having confessed any of the sex they had before they were married or the sex they are having with their second spouse while the first is still living. There isn’t any reason to believe that gay people are any different than straight people who unrepentantly do things against Catholic teaching and still consider themselves Catholic.
I’m speculating since I’m not gay, but I suspect they don’t consider it a sin at all, regardless of what the Church says. It’s similar to contraception, or premarital sex, or a host of other things.
Hell, the Church teaches that masturbation is a mortal sin, one that damns you to hell if you don’t repent and confess. Talk about a harmless hobby that most Catholics ain’t confessing, and neither are they giving it up.
In my experience, FWIW, it’s the very rare Catholic who sweats all the “sins,” even the ones they perceive as harmless. I’d guess that something north of 95% of Catholics (based on zero research on my part) are cafeteria Catholics to some extent, great or small.
Neither gay nor religious but I would note that just because someone says that you shouldn’t do a thing doesn’t mean that you can’t associate with them. Your doctor tells you to eat less and get more exercise - neither of which you might have any intention of doing - that doesn’t necessarily mean that you stop going to the doctor.
Whether the doctor or priest’s list of things is accurate and fair, be as it may, lots of people keep doing what they’re doing, regardless of what they’re being told.
Two things are at work here.
Probably the first one is the fear injected into catholic kids of going to “hell” if they are not catholic, and I assume this is still taught today. The second thing is what my best man said when i asked him why he still stayed catholic and he answered :…“Well I don’t think there is a heaven but I figure it is like “insurance” since it cannot be proved nor disproved”
An idea which, in more elaborate form, is called Pascal’s Wager. Of all the contributions to the debate about the existence or non-existence of God, I think that’s the lamest.
Well, one of my son’s teachers was arrested for having sex with his children. I don’t understand how people still send their kids to school! [/sarcasm]
Pedophiles are going to insert themselves into situations where they have access to children. The rate of pedophelia in the Catholic church is no higher than the rate in any protestant sect nor many other religions. The true scandal with the Catholic church was how they shuffled and hid the abusers rather than allow them to be prosecuted. You need a vast hierarchy to do that, along with many many mistakes by people. The scandal with the Boy Scouts was kinda the opposite - you got caught (or at least suspected), you got kicked out of the INDIVIDUAL troop; the people in your council may know and not let you get involved in another troop in your council, but the next council over doesn’t know, and there was no mandated reporting and no national list. Reporting was poor in scouting because of embarrassment.
In scouting, it was an intentional blind eye; in the Catholic Church, it was intentionally hiding them.
In both organizations, there have been major upgrades in how they deal with pedophelia. Why do parents still sign their kids up for Scouting? Because the kids can learn useful skills (thank God my son knew first aid when I fell out of a tree!) and the kids get a chance to experience things they wouldn’t otherwise. Why am I still Catholic? Because the sex abuse scandal was the fault of individual people, not the teaching of the church, and I believe that their teachings, for the most part, are correct.
My wife and I were married in 1990. Mandatory pre-cana classes before being married in the Catholic church. AT THE CLASS, the priest said something like “I’m not married, never been married, so I’m going to turn this over to this couple to discuss contraception.” Our bit on contraception quoted one papal encyclical that implied contraception was bad; another that implied contraception was good. They ended with “it’s between you and your God.” And, yes, the priest was still there in the room.
Well, the RC is far more liberal on this issue than the evangelical protestant churches.
I mean, why pick on the RC church on this issue? The Pope has been pretty damn liberal on this issue- and others.
Good point.
Right, and swim coaches, and the weird uncle, and protestant ministers, etc. The RC church has no monopoly on child abuse.
Right.
Sure, but apparently Paul was actually talking about gay prostitutes, as some have claimed. But Paul also railed against drunkards, thieves, 'revilers", and fornicators. So, listen to Jesus himself- “let those without sin cast the first stone” since I bet finding a Right wing evangelical preacher who isn’t a drunkard, reviler, thief, or fornicator is gonna be DAMN hard.
Pretty much we all are. And we all can be forgiven.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (malakoi), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (arsenokoitai), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.