Questions for Catholics

[Boyo_Jim]

I was raised Catholic, though I’m an atheist now, and stopped practicing at age 12. So my knowledge of Catholicism is limited, dated, and fogged by time.

One of my sisters still considers herself a practicing Catholic. But she has routinely and unapologetically behaved in ways contrary to the teachings of the Church – birth control, sex outside of marriage, an abortion, to name a few. When I have asked her about why she still considers herself Catholic considering her lifestyle, she generally laughs and says something to the effect of, “Well, I don’t believe THAT stuff”. I believe the familiar term for this is that she is a “cafeteria Catholic”, who picks and chooses from this imaginary buffet table of beliefs, and so has, in a sense, her own personal religion, yet still considers herself Catholic.

I don’t really know how she reconciles all this within the confines of the church. My best guess is that she doesn’t confess these “sins” to a priest because she doesn’t believe they are sins. Is she has been confessing them, then she is probably lying to the priest about repenting them, because she clearly doesn’t. I have suggested to her at times that she’s not a “real” Catholic, and she is outraged by the suggestion. I know lots of other people who have the same kind of relationship with the church, and I would like some opinion on why so many Catholics feel that connection so important, when they clearly don’t embrace so many of its tenets.

It also seems to me that if the church somehow “officially” knew about these deviances from their policies, and particularly the unapologetic nature of the people involved, that many of these folks would be excommunicated. So that’s another question – is unrepentent and ongoing sinning in and of itself grounds for excommunication?

I do recall there has been some miter rattling by various bishops who have threatened to withhold communion from politicians who support a woman’s right to an abortion. Would such an action be based merely on the publicly stated beliefs of said politicians, or for actual votes in support of such positions? I suspect the former, because one thing that sticks from my childhood learnin’ is that the thought or desire is as bad as the deed.

Finally, we now know that for most of our lifetimes, the Catholic church has been shielding the abusers of children at best, and actively abetting the abusers at worst. And the thing that most distinguishes the Catholic church from other Christian denominations is the idea that the church in general and priests in particular are necessary – er, middlemen? (I know there’s a better term but I can’t recall it now) – between god and people. So we are now at a point in history where it is crystal clear (to me, at least) that the church is not acting as an honest broker/interpreter/whatever between their god and their members. Do you agree with this? Doesn’t this seem to cut right to the heart of the very reason for the church’s existence?

[In_Winnipeg]

I think you’re taking it much too seriously. What she’s probably doing is living her life along the lines of what she was taught, which isn’t a bad thing, but she isn’t hung up on all the details. You, on the other hand, believe it to be an “all or nothing” thing and can’t see it being any other way.

Does that make her a hypocrite? Maybe. But then again, it’s all well and good for the Pope to be against birth control, since he never pays any child support, right?

If anything, your sister is realistic. She is keeping the basics of the religion, I’m guessing, which means living within most of the commandments (which is a lot more than a lot of people do). But she is smart enough to know that a lot of the things the Church says “good Catholics” should do doesn’t make a lot of real sense these days.

[Suburban_Plankton]

As with most things, there are probably as many interpretations of what it means to be Catholic as there are Catholics. My take on it is this:

What you’re looking for is the Nicene Creed. It’s recited every week at mass, after the Priest says “Let us stand, and profess our faith”

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

That’s pretty much the bottom line. If you believe these things, and you can call yourself Catholic. If not, you can’t. Everything else is open to discussion and/or interpretation.

[Boyo_Jim]

@In_Winnipeg

I think you’re taking it much too seriously. What she’s probably doing is living her life along the lines of what she was taught, which isn’t a bad thing, but she isn’t hung up on all the details. You, on the other hand, believe it to be an “all or nothing” thing and can’t see it being any other way.

Does that make her a hypocrite? Maybe. But then again, it’s all well and good for the Pope to be against birth control, since he never pays any child support, right?

If anything, your sister is realistic. She is keeping the basics of the religion, I’m guessing, which means living within most of the commandments (which is a lot more than a lot of people do). But she is smart enough to know that a lot of the things the Church says “good Catholics” should do doesn’t make a lot of real sense these days.

This is not about my sister, this is about Catholics in general, and why they insist on retaining their affiliation with this particular strain of christianity in light of their own personal beliefs and behaviors that are at odds with the teachings.

Or maybe the thread is about the church itself, and what it offers that elicits such loyalty, at least in terms of brand recognition.

[In_Winnipeg]

People keep what they know. They don’t usually go out and start all over again somewhere else.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Suburban_Plankton

As with most things, there are probably as many interpretations of what it means to be Catholic as there are Catholics. My take on it is this:

What you’re looking for is the Nicene Creed. It’s recited every week at mass, after the Priest says “Let us stand, and profess our faith”

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

That’s pretty much the bottom line. If you believe these things, and you can call yourself Catholic. If not, you can’t. Everything else is open to discussion and/or interpretation.

I don’t think that’s the case. What you’re describing is more in line with many Protestant religions that allow the individual a more – flexible – relationship with a diety. The Catholic church seems far more restrictive of what it expects of its members.

[Inner_Stickler]

The Catholic Church has a more revelatory nature than most protestant religions which means that it’s more than just scripture. Canon law is supposedly derived from God and therefore legitimate. Generally speaking, you would be excommunicated for theological dissensions like arianism or another heresy and those would be in conflict with the Nicene Creed. Applications of faith are generally handled on a local level and the manner of handling would depend on the priest.

[Sanders]

@Boyo_Jim

It also seems to me that if the church somehow “officially” knew about these deviances from their policies, and particularly the unapologetic nature of the people involved, that many of these folks would be excommunicated. So that’s another question – is unrepentent and ongoing sinning in and of itself grounds for excommunication?

It’s not, but abortion is:

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

So if she had an abortion, she’s already excommunicated.

Generally speaking, though, you don’t get excommunicated for sinning. You just get damned.

[Princhester]

@Boyo_Jim

I know lots of other people who have the same kind of relationship with the church, and I would like some opinion on why so many Catholics feel that connection so important, when they clearly don’t embrace so many of its tenets.

Catholicism is a cultural group to which people and their friends and family belong. Their connection to that culture is important because many people like to feel they belong to a particular group, and because their friends and family belong to it also. The theological stuff is unimportant, except insofar as it:

1/ comprises meaningless ritual practices and words, knowledge of and participation in which marks one as a member of the group (like the Nicene Creed); and/or

2/ reinforces and is compatible with the existing morality of the group.

And when I say “the group” here I don’t mean all Catholics, or the old celibate guys in Rome, I mean the group of Catholics that any given people connects with through their Catholicism.

So there are undoubtedly details of Catholic ritual that a given lay Catholic person would not know, but that is unimportant to their view of themselves as Catholic because they would know the bits of ritual that are practiced in their particular Catholic community. And similarly, a given community of first world Catholics may well not consider birth control, sex outside marriage etc to be wrong and consequently any given member of that community would be comfortable considering themselves Catholic regardless of theoretical teachings of the Catholic Church.

[Princhester]

Missed off a sentence that I meant to add: A lack of embrace of theoretical tenets doesn’t break the connection because those tenets are not important in keeping the connection to what really matters: the Catholic community to which a given individual belongs.

[thelurkinghorror]

@Boyo_Jim

Would such an action be based merely on the publicly stated beliefs of said politicians, or for actual votes in support of such positions? I suspect the former, because one thing that sticks from my childhood learnin’ is that the thought or desire is as bad as the deed.

Slight hijack: Didn’t someone important (Augustine? Aquinas?) say that something wasn’t a sin if it didn’t become an action? Like dreams involving sin were not sins themselves?

Finally, we now know that for most of our lifetimes, the Catholic church has been shielding the abusers of children at best, and actively abetting the abusers at worst. And the thing that most distinguishes the Catholic church from other Christian denominations is the idea that the church in general and priests in particular are necessary – er, middlemen? (I know there’s a better term but I can’t recall it now) – between god and people. So we are now at a point in history where it is crystal clear (to me, at least) that the church is not acting as an honest broker/interpreter/whatever between their god and their members. Do you agree with this? Doesn’t this seem to cut right to the heart of the very reason for the church’s existence?

Sounds a bit like a false dichotomy. Either you accept everything good and bad, or reject the church completely.

[dhkendall]

@Suburban_Plankton

What you’re looking for is the Nicene Creed. It’s recited every week at mass, after the Priest says “Let us stand, and profess our faith”

@Boyo_Jim

I don’t think that’s the case. What you’re describing is more in line with many Protestant religions that allow the individual a more – flexible – relationship with a diety. The Catholic church seems far more restrictive of what it expects of its members.

This.

I’m a Protestant (thereby identifying myself as notCatholic), and I agree with everything on the list! Heck, I’ve been to Lutheran churches a few times (not a Lutheran, but my mom’s family is and we got married in a Lutheran church) and they’ve cited the Creed every week (or, at least, every time I’ve been there, but that’s too much of a coincidence), even the “we believe in the holy catholic church” part - small “c” catholic, but for the longest time it confused me as I knew about Martin Luther and that Lutherans were NOT (Roman) Catholic! Granted, Lutheranism seems to me the most Roman Catholic of the Protestant denominations (probably because it’s among the oldest), but still …

@Sanders

Generally speaking, though, you don’t get excommunicated for sinning. You just get damned.

Huh. Well, I’ll be damned!

[Boyo_Jim]

@Sanders

It’s not, but abortion is:

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

So if she had an abortion, she’s already excommunicated.

Generally speaking, though, you don’t get excommunicated for sinning. You just get damned.

Hmm. I wonder what the consequences of excommunication are if neither the excommunicated nor their priest are aware of it?

I’m certain my sister understands that the church considers it a sin, but she doesn’t, and I’m extremely doubtful she ever discussed it with a priest. She still considers herself Catholic, so I don’t think she gets that there is some automatic process for it.

Nor did I. Can this be true? Is the murderer of an adult automatically excommunicated? I’ve never heard of such a thing. And if not, why the difference? Like, no chance for repentence and forgiveness within the church?

[BigT]

I have been told by catholics that the only thing Luther did wrong was separate from the Church. That it was okay for him to found a new order, believing whatever he wanted. Or at least, after the Counter-Reformation, he should have come back.

It doesn’t surprise me that there are some orders of Catholicism that would have the same beliefs as the Protestant Church.

Also, most Catholics I know do practice birth control, and just ask for forgiveness each time. Same with premarital relations. I think I may even know one who had an abortion, asked for forgiveness, and now calls it a miscarriage. (She also had premarital sex, and only married because she got pregnant.)

Finally, I remember my Catholic roommate in college who told me that one can be a good Catholic if one only attends one mass per year. It doesn’t surprise me that the requirements aren’t that high.

[valleyofthedolls]

@Boyo_Jim

This is not about my sister, this is about Catholics in general, and why they insist on retaining their affiliation with this particular strain of christianity in light of their own personal beliefs and behaviors that are at odds with the teachings.

Or maybe the thread is about the church itself, and what it offers that elicits such loyalty, at least in terms of brand recognition.

Only Catholics don’t practice what they preach? All Democrats must march in lockstep with the Democratic Pary? Republicans with the GOP? If you identify with a particular group, you must not only do and say but believe everything that the powers that be of said group say?

Or in other words, you’re looking for an argument not an actual discussion.

[SanVito]

@BigT

Finally, I remember my Catholic roommate in college who told me that one can be a good Catholic if one only attends one mass per year. It doesn’t surprise me that the requirements aren’t that high.

This sounds about right, the Church has a vested interest in hanging onto as many people as possible. I remember reading somewhere that you can’t leave the Catholic Church of your own free will - even if you converted to Islam, the Church would just regard you as ‘lapsed’.

OP, I can give you the perspective of my Catholic girlfriend (we’re a lesbian couple). She does not practice anymore because she can’t take communion without going to confession and she will not confess to what she doesn’t regard as a sin - her homosexuality. Not being able to practice is a source of some sadness to her, but being true to herself trumps practising her faith.

When I have (half jokingly) suggested she switch to the Church of England - which is pretty close in many respects to Catholicism but without the whole guilt thing and much more accepting of homosexuality - she utterly rejects the idea, because she has been brought up to believe that the Catholic Church is The One True Church - all others are phonies. So, whilst she doesn’t agree with all the teachings of the Church (which she can dismiss as the concoctions of earthly priests), she cannot reject the Church as a whole, as it is the only one that counts. Make any sense?

Oh, yeah, and all the cultural stuff that others have suggested.

[Autolycus]

I read somewhere that once you are baptized Catholic, you are always and forevermore considered a Catholic in the eyes of the Church. You can be ex-communicated or damned, but you are still a Catholic, damned black sheep or not.

I was raised Catholic and was a firm believer up until 8 months ago, so this fits my situation. I’m now comfortably atheist.

[Perciful]

Once a Catholic always a Catholic. It is the same for Jews.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@valleyofthedolls

Only Catholics don’t practice what they preach? All Democrats must march in lockstep with the Democratic Pary? Republicans with the GOP? If you identify with a particular group, you must not only do and say but believe everything that the powers that be of said group say?

Unless the Democratic Party declared that implementation of their platform is the will of God, this is the worst analogy ever.

[emmaliminal]

OP, this won’t necessarily answer your question, but may be of interest to you: a writer for the Seattle alt weekly paper The Stranger is trying to get himself formally excommunicated. It’s apparently very hard to do.
Dear Catholic Church: Excommunicate Me (4/6/10)
So You Want to Get Excommunicated?
Hey Everybody! I Got an E-mail from God!
Excommunicating Ain’t Easy
I Get Letters
Catholic Church Stonewalls Maine TV Station on My Excommunication Status
Address to the Seattle Atheists
Update on My Excommunication (5/17/10)