I think what he was getting at is the fact that almost all sterotypes are based in some truth. I doubt he would say that all blacks listen to rap and all whites go camping, but the root of the sterotype is a simple observation of the fact. It seems that simply stating that someone is different nowadays means your a discrimanting jerk…again, most of these things are simple observatory, not malicious, remarks.
Most stereotypes are not based on truth. They are based on misattributing characteristics (usually negative) common to everyone, to a specific group. So the French are rude, something not found in other nationalities. Asians are bad drivers, unlike the miracles of coordination exhibited by people from other continents. Jews are cheap, while every other religion is noted for spendthriftiness. Women are emotional and irrational, while men always act with dispassionate reason.
Pointing out the exceptions demonstrates the false nature of stereotypes and is to be commended.
Yes. Or as Chesterton famously put it:
When I attended Harvey Mudd College in California, the administration was extremely proud of its record on diversity issues. We had an Office of Institutional Diversity, separate offices for African American and Hispanic issues, and any number of task forces, organizations, festivals, celebrations, etc… designed to drive home the fact that we loved people of all races. What we didn’t have on campus was any significant number of people who actually were black or Hispanic. There were neighborhoods of immigrants from Mexico, Vietnam, and Laos literally across the street from the campus, but the college made no attempt at outreach directed towards them. Based on what I’ve experienced in other places, this type of situation is pretty common wherever you have the sort of academic environment dominated by thinking that falls under the heading of “political correctness”. Tolerate other races, appreciate other races, celebrate other races, but don’t get too close to 'em.
The basic meme to which the OP refers is the core concept of “diversity=good.” There’s no reason that should self-evidently be true, there are always obvious caveats and counter-examples, so it has to be asserted simply as a truism. Which leads to the caveats or counterexamples being raised. And leads to bitter resistance to such counter-examples from the Diversity Industry, which can’t readily afford to have its bedrock principle challenged or shown to be as questionable as it really is.
You can see this in your own workplace or university or wherever if it is one that’s been infected by the diversity bug. The Official Story is that having a “diverse” population will lead to “more and better ideas and outcomes.” This could arguably be true in a bull session about politics or a history class, but it’s pretty clear to most people after awhile that being black or Puerto Rican or female doesn’t/couldn’t in itself make you a better (or worse) calculus student or draftsman or auditor. But once compulsory diversity, which means AA, which means quotas and almost always significantly lowered standards, come into play, people will notice, through either classroom or workplace interaction, hey, that guy’s not pulling his weight, hey, he doesn’t seem as academically qualified as other people here, hey, he has atrocious grammar and spelling, hey, how come we refer to someone as a “diversity candidate” as an argument for hiring them with a resume that would otherwise get canned after one glance? I don’t know that I would call workers or students in such situations “racist,” but they are probably more conscious that parts of the Official Narrative don’t always hold up under scrutiny.
To use a concrete example…
Who’s more likely to have a positive opinion of Koreans- an affluent homemaker in a lily-white suburb, or an inner-city African-American working mom who shops daily at stores owned by Koreans?
The answer is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you’d expect, if you assume that diversity promotes closeness. In many, many neighborhoods around this country, African-Americans LOATHE Korean shopkeepers, whom they regard as hostile, cold and racist.
From my own lengthy experience, I understand. Oh, I DON’T hate Koreans! I just understand why many people WOULD! You see, reality is always more complicated than platitudes.
Having shopped at Korean-owned stores for many years, when I lived in New York, I learned a few things:
- Koreans, especially recent immigrants, are extremely brusque and formal with people they don’t know well. They can seem cold and taciturn to the point of rudeness. If you’re used to dealing with shopkeepers who smile and make small talk (as Greek or Italian shopkeepers always do), well, dealing with Koreans can be aggravating. They sometimes act as if they just want you to pay and get the hell out of their nice store.
After a while, most customers get used to it, and start to realize, “That’s just the way they are, it’s not a personal insult.” But I can easily understand why an African-American customer at a Korean mini-mart would interpret standard Korean brusqueness as overt racism!
- Koreans are often VERY funny people. An outsider just doesn’t get to see that for quite a while. But if you ever DO manage to get to know them and break through their curt formality, you’ll find that they’re extremely humorous, often HILARIOUS once they relax around you.
What I’m getting at is, when you ask, “Does being around people of other ethnic groups make us like them more,” the answer isn’t simple. Spend a LITTLE time around Koreans, and you may (understandably) find them aggravating and even infuriating. Spend a LOT of time among them, and learn to understand them a bit on THEIR terms, and they can be delightful.
It’s not either/or.
You’re special, though, Skaldy. And you’re the exception, not the rule.
This is almost my story, exactly. Forgive me for repeating myself on these boards, but it happens:
I grew up in Pittsburgh. It’s almost entirely white. Other races were more like quirky anomalies than a separate culture. A random black person you’d run into in the mall would more often than not act just the same as you do. Same music, same clothes, same dialect, etc. And as a result, I was “bred” with this “we’re all the same inside” mentality.
Then my fiancee and I moved to DC. Our entire view of race, culture, and social groups got flipped on its head. Wait, that hispanic couple really are illegal immigrants? You’re not just calling them that as a joke, like in Pittsburgh? That black guy is selling drugs, isn’t he? Yep, definitely dealing. And every time we’d go into the city, there was this clash of culture. Black guys are always harrassing women on the sidewalk and blasting rap from their cars. Every time we get on the Green Line (aka Black Line), there’s a fight or robbery or something. We don’t take that line anymore.
There was a time where we were walking with two other friends and a white couple was crossing in the crosswalk. A black driver tried to make a right hand turn where they were walking. He leans out the window and goes “Fuck you, bitch ass crackers!” My fiancee shakes her head, turns to me, and says “This city is making me racist.” And the thing is, the rest of our group just nodded in agreement! And of course, there’s the infamous “Power trip Jamal” pit thread about DC’s anti-white metro system employees.
And it’s sad, really. I’d rather go back to pretending it didn’t exist. But there is an undeniable racial divide in this city. You just can’t keep your head in the sand and pretend that it doesn’t exist. So what’s it called when you only hate a race in one city? And am I/are we wrong for doing that?
Not smiling upon a white guy for jumping a turnstile = anti white now? Okay.
I was referring to the anti-white verbiage, actually, that’s I’ve overheard more than once. The one in that thread was “See? That’s what I hate about white people.”
This. When I was growing up, my parents tried to explain away racism by saying that racists are simply wrong. There is NO difference between people EXCEPT the pigmentation of your skin.
So, falsely, you grow up believing that (blacks, Asians, fill in the blank) live EXACTLY like you do with the same interests, hobbies and everything except for the fact that their skin might be a different color.
Then when you get out in the world you see that there are huge cultural differences, some good, some bad, that put you into an us v. them mentality.
I don’t think it is our parents’ fault. We just misunderstood what they were trying to tell us.
A friend of mine and I were talking about this the other day. While he was growing up, his three best friends were black, and even today these fellows still remain real good friends. Specifically we were talking about the stereotype that black people like chicken and watermelon. Now we don’t live down south either where this is more common–and he stated that this stereotype is bascially true, most of the time when he goes out to eat with a black person, they get chicken alot. And ironically, I was telling this same story to a friend of mine who works at the meat counter in a stop-and-shop a couple weeks ago, and he couldn’t agree more, saying that probably nine out of the ten people that buy big buckets of chicken from him are black. Now anyone can turn such things into malicious statements, but that doesn’t remedy them untrue.
Jews are thought to be cheap, becuase throughout the early, middle, and late medeival periods they were generally the more wealthy in townships, due to their adherence to Old Testament laws which generally dictate some form of moderation regarding personal pleasures, and rigorous application of oneself to ones duties. This effect, though not accurately defined, could be understandbly viewed as “cheap.” Asians are stereotyped as bad drivers because of the fact that as Asian powers were some of the latest to obtain mass amounts vehicles, and as they in most cases had overcroweded cities, this invariabely created hectic driving conditions due to the masses of vehicles driving around and the lack of advanced and concrete road laws. So when you then have such drivers dispersing into the world and driving the same ways they did in their home country, it very understandably appears to people that, “Asians are bad drivers.” None of these things are inherently “bad,” and certaintly not all Jews are cheap, not all blacks like chicken and watermelon, and not all Asians are bad drivers.
Stereotypes are not simply “misattributing characteristics” to unliked social groups. Its easy to be mislead into thinking this, as there are several emmient examples of this happening in recent centuries (such as the Nazi’s trying to forge poor images of Jews, early southerners trying to explain the inferiority of blacks, etc) though this is almost always done through the use of mass propaganda, which in many ways seperates it from the the more commonly implicated form of “stereotype.” The problem is that through the ever increasing human ability to spread information, genocides, racial issues, and discrimnations have been for the past 200 years been brought more and more into the realizations of, mostly, academic types. Certainly I am not claiming this to be a bad thing, but as it is, our culture has become so revolted by these past events that we have attempted to take matters in the complete opposite direction, and more and more for the worse. Its like grabbing a friend whose falling off and cliff, and pulling him back so hard he falls into the fire behind you. Now I’m from Rhode Island. People all across New England and elsewhere jokingly remind me of the stereotype that Rhode Islanders suck at driving…and, well…they kind of do. It seems if you put your directional on in any other state, they usually let you in, whereas in RI the only people we let in are cops. Ha, in fact, we have a little saying here about RI drivers that goes, “Everyone that drives slower then you is an idiot, and everyone that drives faster then you is a jerk.” Now certinaly I’m aware of some very good RI drivers…but it would be a complete lie to say that the statement, “Rhode Islanders are bad drivers” has no truth to it.
You and your friend are prejudiced. There is no biological factor that makes people with dark skin like fried chicken and watermelon any more than people with light skin. And you believe that the anecdotal report of someone working the meat counter at the stop-and-shop is evidence that there is. You have proven my point.
Jews are not cheap. Poor people are cheap because they don’t have money, and rich people are cheap because that’s one way to get rich, and that doesn’t change according to a person’s religion. The stereotype about Jews being cheap is nothing more than a lie perpetrated because of the believe that they killed Jesus, and so Christians are free to hate them without violating the principles they claim to have. It’s more complex than that, but that is the ‘if not for’ part of it.
Asians are no worse drivers than any other selected group of people. But people like you see an Asian doing something stupid in their car and attribute it to the continent where they might have once lived.
The fact that the misattribution is deliberate and encouraged does not change things. Prejudices existed before there was any means of mass propaganda. These are not modern concepts either. I suspect you humans wiped out most of Neanderthal ancestors because you were jealous that we are smarter and better looking. And the opposite direction of killing people who are different is not killing people who are different. How on earth has your life been made worse by efforts to educate people and get them to think instead of acting on stereotype perceptions?
If you are from Rhode Island you would realize Rhode Islanders do suck at driving and don’t let people into their lane, almost as much as drivers from Massachusetts, who are by and far the worst. But barely different from other states. This is a cultural thing, combined with the large percentage of all drivers who suck at it. The prejudice comes in when you think someone from Rhode Island or Massachusetts sucks at driving because of where they live, instead of the demonstrable evidence that you see on the road.
And the joke goes ‘anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot, and anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac’. You use the term anyone because it refers to a single person, the one right in front of you, or passing you at high speed, not everyone on earth driving faster or slower. And the term maniac refers to the idea that you would be driving at the maximum reasonable speed in the first place.
I’m pretty sure that I teach in the neighborhood to which you are referring. My school is interesting: on one hand, we are in the midst of a VERY affluent neighborhood–tons and tons of houses that go 500-750K, and quite a few in the millions (which in Texas is a lot of house). However, most of those kids go to private schools, but we get quite a few–lots of kids whose great grandparents had oil money and whose grandparents and parents are very well paid professionals. But we also have about 65% of our kids on free lunch. As a school, we are about 50% Hispanic, 25% black, 25% white.
The kids do self-segregate a lot, and some of that is institutionalized. You can walk into a classroom and tell if it’s an AP/pre-AP class or not: the regular classes are virtually entirely minority, the AP classes, only about half. This is caused by a combination of things: institutionalized racism, social pressure, lack of academic preparation, parental pressure. One thing I’ve noticed, however, is that within the AP classes, the kids self-segregate significantly less: the identifying label of “AP kid” or “regular kid” (and they use those a lot) becomes more important than race. I don’t know if it’s because it’s a fairly small group that are all in the same classes so they come to know each other better, or if it’s because the races are more balanced, or if it’s because they tend to be active in the school community and so see each other in social situations, or because academic divisions have replaced racial ones (they do tend to separate by ability). The more involved a student is in the school community, the more likely they are to have only friends from their own race.
So from my own anecdotal experience, I have to say that I think close proximity can discourage racism only when the kids are really put in a position where they interact a lot–hours and hours a week with the same kids, not just the same races. Many superficially racially diverse situations are actually pretty segregated, and that does seem to intensify racism.
What makes you think we think it’s biological or has anything to do with skin pigment?
After reading your response, its unfortunate to find you felt the need to argue ad hominem with no reasonable support for your claims of why I’m a discriminating jerk. I never said that these factors have anything to do with anything biological. I **did **say however that these things certainly are not across the board attributes of every Jew, Asian, or Black. We’re just so deathly afraid of anything that bears any resemblence of prejedice and discrimantion today that we’ll put simple observations of the fact into the same catagory as open discrimination.
Your right though…I am prejudice against blacks for being the way many are…that doesn’t mean I have a malicious attitude towards them, or treat them worse then they ought to be treated. If I were to say “don’t swim across this river cause theres alligators in there,” from what your telling me, it would appear very surmise-able that you would go on to explain how alligators dont attack humans all the time and I’m stereotyping alligators.
I guess that depends. Are you a bitch ass?
I hate Skald the Rhymer, but I like other black people just fine. I think we’re in the same boat.
Can we stop pretending like the stereotype about black that we are talking about is “they like fried chicken” and say what we actually mean?
They dance like this?
They steal our women?
I have a black neighbor on one side and an Iraqi on the other. I don’t know why it is a problem. Both families are very nice. They are just people.
Read the reply from Hold Fast. I noticed a pattern in his response. I didn’t point my remarks at anyone but him. He admits his prejudice. So my surmise turned out to be correct.