My understanding is if we really want to have nothing to do with God, God will allow that.
Also we are made in a way that Jesus just has to love us, as such I think we had to be made to be right on the borderline of rebellion. It establishes the relationship that we realize we need Him by our own free will submit to Him and He Loves us, empowers us and even gives us His name. (this is reflected in the relationship between man and wife)
As for what type of created being actually go to Hell and/or outer darkness, and why God made them that way that they would end up there, I don’t know.
So, then, in fact, a plan of man can succeed against God’s will. If it’s God’s will that Revenant Threshold not believe in Him until 2010, but RT decides that, as there is no God, he should just go ahead and kill himself, RT will never receive knowledge and faith of God’s existence, and is completely screwed, theologically speaking.
The first video in particular. My life has had very similar patterns to what Earthquake Kelly has experienced, the video representation of spirits and angels match almost exactly to my personal experience, including enemy powers of astral projection which I have experienced , his view of Hell I believe is accurate, though I have had a experience with outer darkness, not Hell. Here you can see divine protection and how God will save His people, though it may be very very unpleasant.
The condition of the heart while making it, which includes trying to preserve His meaning as He wrote it (don’t add or subtract)
Right. So we’ve established that the Lord’s plans can be subverted by the will of man. Now, the part where this gets rocky for God is that you’ve said that he has a plan for everyone to come to Him, and that it will only happen in His time. So, say He has marked down in His celestial calendar that the manifest truth of His existence and benevolence will be revealed to Revenant Threshold on March 5th, 2012. But Revenant Threshold, dejected at the prospect of spending his life in a Godless universe, steps in front of a bus on April 9th, 2010. Not only has God’s plan been subverted, but RT has died in a state of sin (being an unbeliever and a suicide) specifically because God was taking His own sweet time in getting around to putting the Faith into him. Which somewhat subverts the first premise of my previous post: if God really loved RT and wanted RT to be with Him in heaven, He would have moved His fat ass a little sooner and shown RT the light before his unfortunate encounter with the 8:15 Crosstown.
Interesting. Would it be fair to say that, just as God works with the constraints that we have in terms of free will to prevent my untimely death (again assuming I don’t myself fall from the ideal), will I similarly be protected from the more unpurposed potential dangers? For example, my neighbour not only will be prevented from killing me purposefully, but also from driving down a street if it meant that I would be run over accidentally by him? And, likewise, am I protected from the more natural dangerous phenomena - God will intervene to ensure I am not killed by earthquake, hurricane, or tsunami (not that those things are particularly common in London anyway ;))?
Thanks for the link; i’ll be sure to give that video (and the page) a lookover.
But surely, if our imperfectness means that we cannot fully understand his meaning, and it is only through him acting through us that we can truly preserve that meaning, then we’re left with a paradox? We cannot fully understand and preserve the meaning without God’s aid; in order to recieve this aid, we must honestly attempt to preserve it, which requires we understand it; and we go around again. Since we cannot fully understand what it is we attempt to preserve, there must be at least some flaw in our understanding, and thus our attempts cannot be honest.
Sorry if I chose the wrong word. Substitute sacred writings or whatever words you prefer and my point remains. Words that different religions consider revered inspired instructions from God or the religions founder.
If we’re actually living as Jesus asked us to live, with sincere loving kindness to our fellow man, then it may be that we are glorifying him by spreading and sharing that love. In fact Jesus teaches this.
note in the last verse the righteous didn’t know by helping the needy they were following Jesus. They were doing it out of a sincere loving heart.
I’m not ignoring it. I know many people have had profound experiences while reading the Bible. My own experience is that same type of experience can happen in lots of different environments. I’m suggesting that profound experience is more related to the sincere heart and mind of the seeker than is is any external tool. A Christian can sense the spirit and feel a sense of unity and love, expanded understanding, while reading something in the New Testament. A Buddhist may feel a sense of enlightenment, unity and understanding while meditating on a particular Buddhist passage. In both examples it is the spiritual condition of the heart and mind of the seeker that allows them to be taught.
Make no mistake, I revere the Bible and the teachings of Jesus but my goal is to look at it for what is is aside from man’s traditions about it. I’ve read several articles that were supposed to explain the apparent conflicts and contradictions of the Bible. So far they have all fallen far short of their goal using the same type of assumptive logic you have. If the spirit has provided you or others with something that makes the contradictions disappear and the reasons for conflicts apparent as the truth is revealed I wish some one would explain it to me or write a decent book about it.
Friend this makes no sense at all. Seeking for the truth concerning the Bible is not trying to discredit it. It’s placing the truth above mans tradition as God asks us to do. My question is simple. Who says it was ever God’s intention to have a particular collection of books be the authoritative final collection of his written Word? The answer I’ve come to in my own seeking is that this is man’s tradition. If you can show me anything that indicates otherwise I welcome the input.
How is it that if the spirit spoke to man in generations past and men tried to record that experience to share with others, it now makes total sense and is the odds on favorite that it no longer happens. How is it that without a single meaningful passage indicating it was God’s plan we at some point have this compilation it’s the odds on favorite that it is God’s plan.
Yes we have this valuable book, a compilation of writings. We also know there were many other writings held as scripture in early Christianity. We now have some of them. It isn’t a question of whether the Bible exists, it obviously does. It’s a question of giving it or any writings a more authoritative and important place in our seeking the truth than they should have. Truth over tradition as I’ve said. What makes sense to me and seems more consistent is that it is the sincere heart and mind of the seeker that the spirit responds to, regardless of culture, race, or which book we happen to be reading. Love is love, kindness and compassion are kindness and compassion and the labels we attach to categorize things are for our own purposes not God’s.
I’m afraid not. This was written by one author referring to his writing rather than the Bible , since it didn’t exist. It also contradicts your claim about God protecting his word. Issuing this warning is consistent with free will in that it indicates man could add to or take away from the book. Now you might make the leap that God planned these words to be the in the last book of his planned compilation {which you haven’t shown was ever his plan} but you’d have to explain all the scriptures written after Deuteronomy.
That verse in Rev doesn’t indicate it was God’s plan to have the Bible as we have it without playing fast and loose with logic in an attempt to bolster that assumed belief.
false teachings? according to who? The Bible speaks of other letters written by Paul to Corinth and Laodiceans 1 Corinthians 5:9 and Colossians 4:16. Wouldn’t we like to have these books or did they contain false teachings from Paul? There are lots of other examples. One can assume the books we have are the ones God decided were the best ones, but once again, that’s twisting logic to support an assumed belief that is a tradition.
This simply doesn’t match what Biblical scholars tell us about the scriptures. Some of them Christian scholars. We have thousands of copies of the NT either whole or partial. No two are exactly alike. Some contain significant differences. That’s simply a fact which indicates man can and did change the scriptures. IMHO that only makes sense when you consider free will. God will allow man the free will to torture and murder our fellow man but not the free will to alter written words? That very inconsistent.
He’s willing to do it for anyone and everyone right? And still Christians who invite the spirit into their hearts don’t agree with each other. I think that teaches me something about the nature of man’s relationship to God.
I’d settle for something a lot less specific. Something consistent with what’s written in the books we have in the Bible. There isn’t anything.
That’s a great story but says nothing about the discussion at hand.
well, someone will.
I’d like to repeat that seeking the truth about what the Bible is and what it isn’t is not an attempt to diminish or discredit it. I hold it in very high esteem as a teaching and study tool for anyone.
I think it would be fair to say that in general and apply to most people, though there may be cases where the Lord has finished trying to call one, and has no use for that person anymore on earth and will just save them at the end.
We had this conversation before. There will always be believers who has done the work before we come to Jesus, the Lord will send them to help guide us during the transition.
Here again is where God steps in, using our imperfectness to make perfection. God knows we are not perfect, He does not want us to try to be perfect. It is also the difference between the text of the scriptures which may (and I say do) have transcription errors and the Word. God has the ability to have you ignore mistakes, to take you away from them and use other scriptures to speak the Word into your heart as He wants.
Again going on personal experience, there was a Psalm I was reading, God spoke to me and had me go to the Lexicon and transliterate it myself. There was a alternate meaning, equally as valid a translation but for some reason man translated it differently. Now I don’t know if the Bible is accurate, my transliteration is accurate or both, but it shows how God works. Even if there are errors, when they are relevant He will point them out, and prompt us to do a bit of work for a wonderful moment of discovery that I praised Him for. If that Psalm was not needed for me to understand I’m sure I would have just passed right by it in thought, even if I read it there would be no Word spoken to my heart.
True. This is why we are to ‘test the spirits’ compare what is said against the Word, so we may discern the truth spoken and what is not of God. God will indicate what He wants you to do and when.
A example is from the RCC, a holy day of obligation (hdoo), that the church mandates that the people attend. There is no such thing in scriptures and He has shown me (for me) they can be ignored when it is done by a man made rule. This happened to me, not for a hdoo, but Sunday worship, where I wanted to go, but the Holy Spirit gave me these verses as I slept:
And
Meaning worship is a act of sacrifice, and that is the gift at the alter. By these God was speaking to me don’t go to church, repair a broken relationship instead, which I did.
OTOH God has instructed me to attend worship at other times, what can be considered a personal hdoo, but that was from God, not man.
But even for those who observe hdoo’s God can use that too, it is the condition of the heart, they are trying to follow God, and God may have them follow man made rules in the process.
Here’s an example that allows me to explain my point. I’m not trying to discredit or minimize the importance of the Bible. In all sincerity, I think it’s a wonderful study tool and has been an important part of my own spiritual journey beginning with my time as a Christian. Over the years my beliefs have changed and I’ve some to see that the source of inspiration, teaching and enlightenment is that living spirit within us. There’s still a lot to understand but I see it as our connection to God the source of all knowledge. The passages that support this concept are numerous.
Gog grants wisdom to all who ask. That seems to fit with the concept of God loving all men equally. to support this we have
Another I’ve already mentioned
and
Over and Over again in the Bible we see that God sees the true intent of a person. Beyond what we give lip service to and even beyond what we are consciously aware of.
IMHO that means any person seeking the truth regardless of the limits of human language and the details of culture and tradition, church synagogue, temple or mosque, mountain top or laboratory, will find truth. As you said before, “aspects of the truth mixed in with man made rules.” We are still learning and limited. The journey continues.
Trusting in those spiritual principles, our ability to seek and find the truth, our ability to connect with God, the source, we don’t need to elevate any writings above all others. We can study the Bible and other books with faith that a sincere heart seeking the truth will connect with that guiding spirit and ultimately, the truth will become apparent.
I understand. I try to be aware of the inner voice when it comes to how to spend my time and energy. It is a condition of the heart and discipline can be a struggle at times.
I may consider some of them satanically or demonically inspired, as such they may contain truths presented in ways that are deceptive.
Yes, but acting in the Holy Spirit. We simply can not do the work he wants on our own, He must work through us. God is Love, it is God that must Love through us. We can not Love one another as Jesus Loves, but we are required to Love as He Love, the only way to reconcile this is if He Loves through us, which would have to be through His Spirit.
To
The question is who is Jesus’ brothers and sisters. He defines it here
The reason is those who do the will of the Father have Jesus living inside them. By helping them out you ARE doing those things (giving food, comfort, etc.) to the Lord Himself.
While it’s true that all creation is to speak of and point to and praise the Creator and God can and does use other things to speak to us, His Word is a prime way of doing it.
Going on personal experiencing at one dark time in my life I was involved with worship of the enemy, I assure you that they can provide this sense, including intense feelings of extacy, but at extreme cost. They take you away from the true God, making your trip to Him very long and hard. They will do anything they can to do this, even offer ‘power’ and or ‘wisdom’ and the like.
Seek and you shall find. The spirit world is real, more real IMHO then our physical one. There are spirits empowered to lead the seeker.
Bold mine. My WAG is you will never get this from a person. It is what God is willing to reveal to you personally. Something He leads you to figure out, and when the pieces come together it is a glorious moment, like a vale removed from your mind.
As for the traditions taught and handed down by man, they IMHO get in the way. We are to come to Him as a infant learns from a parent.
I’d have to go with my own experience, I asked God about other ‘inspired’ writings, He said to go with the Bible as a copy of His Word.
In asking this question you have to assume that there is a God who wants His Word known and available. It is the odds on favorite because of intelligent design IMHO, it is designed by a all knowing/powerful being to accomplish just that, which would seem to indicate a single source, which is the Word and is God.
You can also get this through pattern reconition. The pattern is also held up from spiritual (there is one true source, God), and physical (the scriptures should also be one true source). There are patters from large to small all throughout scriptures that point to God at all times.
The Hebrew day, from sundown to sundown is the pattern of our lives. We are created by God, and we know God in the beginning (twilight), that light fades and we live in darkness (night) following the ways of man, learning their ways. The the sun (Son of God) dawns on us, and we follow in His ways and walk in light till the end of this physical life. This is also the pattern of the Bible. We start at a moment with God (Adam and Eve), then start our human journey, The Flood IMHO is delivery (birth), where our world radically changes. We start to hear of God, we seek people who claim to know God (Prophets) and depend on them for our instructions from God, we as children are typically taught the Law (10 commandments). At some point of our lives Jesus is born to us. At this point many believers have a great incredible time of fellowship as Jesus (typically through one of His believers) walks with us and we are shown amazing things. After which time that person is removed and we walk in the Spirit, free’ed from the curse of the law and given grace.
I would say love is not Love. The love of man is not the same as the Love of God acting through the believer.
Again you are making the assumption that the books of the Bible are works of man, not a complete work of God before the world was created. The author is God Himself, just written down by His servants, in this case Saint John.
There is also a warning of this type in Proverbs 30:6, “Do not ad to His Words or He will rebuke you and call you a liar” If man made passages were slipped in, would not God have rebuked us and called us a liar in a way that those passages would be removed?
Single source does however. We are to go to Him and Him alone, the pattern would hold that His Word would be presented as single source.
Do we have those books? Did Paul even do things in his own effort? It’s trust in God that He preserved His Word.
I’d say it’s trust in God and listening to Him above man.
Lets look at the Word vs scriptures. There are 3 versions of the 10 commandments in scriptures, all different. But though the text may differ, the Word, spoken to our heart is consistent across all 3.
Free will, to me, is not what most people consider free will. It is like a chose your own adventure book, or a text computer adventure game. We follow a set path to a certain point and have a decision to make, go to the mountains - go to page 134 or through the forest Go to page 28 - then you read what you do from there till the next decision. There are far fewer choices then we think. Man’s inhumanity to man is usually a result of a sinful choice in the past, which that person becomes a slave to their sin and that sin dictates the future choices of paths, perhaps negating the trip to the mountain mentioned above. I don’t believe it’s a open invite to do everything.
Or to put it another way, you may think you can murder your boss, but the truth is it may be physically impossible, though everything you perceive indicates you have free will to do so.
Our paths IMHO are very limited, including what exactly we can do with the copy of the Word.
As it should, and it should continue to refine that as we work out our faith. (His Word does address this)
If you hold it in high esteem, why not follow His instruction in it as a way to find all truths? Perhaps you believe you are doing exactly that.
