kanicbird looking at my schedule over the next few days I see my time will be pretty limited. I also think we may have exhausted the subject for now. Every discussion of logic and evidence seems to come down to the fact that you believe certain things are true because the spirit told you so despite apparent inconsistencies and contradicting evidence. I appreciate the time and effort you’ve put in to these threads and I think I understand your pov a little better. I thank you for that insight.
I think most people also contain certain aspects of the truth mixed in with their own ideas and emotions and sorting those out is a challenging process.
In my own studies I came to a point where I associated truth with the verse that says “use what you have and I’ll give you more” in that I think each individual needs to be true to what they sincerely believe and let experiences and input help them adjust and hopefully improve their belief system in a positive way. If we remain true to ourselves and make love and truth our guiding principles we’re on the right path and even the same path, even though they may seem so very different at times. Someone’s path may lead through Christianity while another’s leads through Buddhism, while still another’s leads through atheism. Seeking the truth means those paths will eventually converge.
This is to the brothers (fellow believers) and is true.
My personal experience would be contrary to your assumption. I sought love but didn’t find it, when I sought Jesus I found Love.
Jesus instructs us here to Love the Lord first, then the neighbor. Also Jesus does not say that this may is your brother (in the Lord) - which was what we were talking about, but a neighbor. Yes we are instructed to be merciful to all, that does not mean that we are serving the Lord personally as in the other passage, but this action may bring them to the Lord.
No but this does not mean that Jesus dwells in the non-believer, which was what we were talking about.
I would highly recommend a more literal translation for this work, Here is the Greek:
αδελφων noun - genitive plural masculine
adephos ad-el-fos’: a brother near or remote – brother.
It is unquestionable brother, and Bible version shopping will not change that. Normally when we question the scriptures we look towards a more literal translation, not a less literal one.
We believers are not at war with non-believers, but the spiritual forces of evil. Evangelism is part of our work, getting His message to the non-believer even if it’s a nudge of kindness. This still doesn’t change the Word.
Yes I’ve stated this, the scriptures are read, but the Word speaks to the heart.
We, the believer are to look for the fruit of the Spirit to know if the Holy Spirit dwells among another. Discern and discernment are often cited as gifts of the Holy Spirit along the lines of tongues, prophecy and the like, but it is never listed as such, it may be a distortion of ‘testing of the spirits’, but that is really far different.
I’m saying that God is willing to explain it to everyone, but a a personal level, if they seek Him. That’s the way He works, on a personal level.
Agreed, and we mentioned before that all religions contain them.
Trust that God is working it for the good and:
And God Breathed
I can see your point, this would have to be shown to you by God, not me.
I’d agree with that. But how do we know what true Love is? Is it not expressed in Lord Jesus alone? What other god is there that would be willing to die for man only out of Love? To learn what Love really is we need to know Jesus.
Again I’m going to defer this matter to God to prove to you. That’s how it worked with me, I though as you did, God showed me otherwise.
He would because God can not lie (So God can make a rock so large that He Himself can not move)
Perhaps those books are available to some, but God is hiding it from others? I’ll leave this in God’s hands.
Would it, that would, among other things unconfuse our language, undoing the Tower of Babel, which God has done for our good. I don’t think we would want that.
We don’t have perfect knowleage, nor does God want us to. As for why, as I mentioned above that would also mean perfect communication.
How is it in contradiction, I see it as a support of it.
I’m following the entity that took me out of death and restored me to life, the one who has proven Himself totally faithful, loving and consistent.
I have seen where my ways lead, even in my best efforts, it’s a place I never want to go to again. So I have abandoned running my own life and given it to Jesus to live in me. He owns me now, there is no turning back.
Thanks… but - and although I shan’t comment on whether or not I think your new viewpoint is a reasonable one - this doesn’t really seem much like the sort of change of mind that necessarily requires a big spiritual rethink.
Given that the topic of the thread is creationism, do you think you could possibly provide a more relevant example - something where your new viewpoint gives you an explanation that is a better match for reality than before?
As you and I build our ‘man’s worldview’, including creation/evolution based on learning from man’s teaching over many years and across disciplines that all interconnect and interweave to arrive that we consider a reasonable view of how the world came to be. It is also the way God teaches. We have to learn all over again, not mixing man’s teachings into God’s. Step by step God teaches us over many subjects, from the basic elementary level to whatever level of schooling He wants, if we let Him.
To teach creationism right now would be equivalent to teaching a 1 year old evolution, it’s not going to happen. And it needs to be God who instructs, not man. Paul put it this way
But, just for the moment, assume I am correct in the above, and there are people in prison (though they appear to be free), and people wandering in the desert (though you see plenty all around you), and people of great advantage (though they seem to have no particular reason for that). People living in such differing conditions in ways man is incapable of perceiving, how can you possibly trust man’s view on the world?
Science can’t be tested by a one year old as they are not mature enough to understand what it is, likewise a person who is but a spiritual infant or young child has not developed enough to test the ways of God. Both can’t even understand the test.
I can assure you that God can be tested is more consistent then science, more available to everyone who seeks answers from Him, doesn’t require expensive equipment.
Avoiding scientific evidence with semantic tricks isn’t necessary and more importantly it isn’t an honest devotion to the truth.
I prefer the Bahai approach
This was in response to your comment that other so called holy writings such as he Koran, Gita, Buddhist writings, etc. might be satanic since only the Bible is the word of God.
My contention is that any person, regardless of culture or religious labels, who sincerely seeks spiritual understanding will receive it. One God, one truth for all creation. The various religions reflect man’s imperfect attempt to express their communion with God, and to understand life’s unsolved mysteries about where we came from , and our purpose here. They also reflect man’s ego and quest for control over others as some leaders have used religion to manipulate others and line their pockets. No religion or doctrine is correct. All are the light shining through stained glass.
but I digress, back to James 1:5 I’ve heard the “that verse was directed to believers” argument before. Does it make sense in this case? Are you saying God only gives wisdom to Christians? Only to those who have accepted Jesus as Saviour? I note that the verse says *God gives generously to all *without finding fault. If a non believer asks God “Please show me if you’re really there, if you really love me and want me to serve you” then God won’t respond because they’re not already believers? I don’t find that in keeping with this verse.
The same God for all creation sees the true intent of the heart. Are you saying that loving merciful God won’t respond to a true heart in a Mosque, or Buddhist temple because the people praying don’t believe the right things? That seems very inconsistent with the qualities I attribute to God. I’ll take James 1:5 as it reads. God gives generously to all without finding fault.
It’s not just an assumption. It’s not based on some intellectual theory but on my own experiences. What I mean is that we learn through striving to love, the great differences between what we often think of as love, and the true nature of love. I know many people have learned more about love through a spiritual experience. That’s true of many different religions. Again , it’s the sincere intent of the heart that God sees rather than the religious labels.
In 1 John 4 where we are encouraged to test the spirits, we find,
We find over and over again in the scriptures that our actions reflect the true intent of the heart and our spiritual condition.
That’s semantics. Are you saying if two people are hungry we should feed the believer and let the atheist go hungry because he’s just a neighbor and not a brother. God is the God of all mankind and wants all people to believe right? IMHO all people are our brothers and sisters as creations of God and we are to love them as if they are brothers and sisters.
I think you’re drawing lines and boundaries where there are none. You believe God created everything and this physical reality is less real than our spiritual reality right?
God sustains all life right? That must mean that every person alive has his spirit in them in some way. I think the difference is the frame of mind and the heart of the individual. How much and in what way do they acknowledge that spirit? How much do the concerns of the physical world distract all of us from spiritual concerns.
{bolding mine}
{mine again}
Now concerning MAt 25
Fair enough. I wasn’t Bible shopping but merely pointing out how others interpreted the spirit of the phrase. The question here is does his use of brother here mean believers or just the brotherhood of all men. You claim it’s believers because of Mark 3:31-35 and Luke 8:19-21
I’d point out that in both those sections Jesus speaks of deeds above labels.
Mark 3:35Whoever *does God’s will *is my brother and sister and mother."
Luke 8:21
He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
This relates to Mat 25 because Jesus again shows that’s deeds reflect the true condition of the heart. People were rewarded for visiting the sick and imprisoned, acts of compassion , while others who recognized him as Lord and in Mat 7 claimed to do works in his name were still cast away. I don’t believe he’s speaking of visiting believers, but rather kindness shown to our fellow man, all his creations.
One aspect that you chose not to respond to is the fact that those Jesus was rewarding didn’t know visiting the sick and imprisoned was the same as doing it to JC. It seems to me a believer would know that.
the fruits of the spirit are love and compassion as the scriptures tell us over and over. All love is born of God and everyone who loves is born of God.
I agree with that but it still doesn’t address the issue at hand. You’re claiming it was God’s will to preserve and protect the written Word, which is the Bible. You further claim that the Holy Spirit has explained to you and will explain to others why the apparent contradictions and textual discrepancies in the copies of those writings are not real. Yet you can’t explain it to me using any written words. That seems pretty inconsistent. It’s an elongated version of “I just have faith that my notions are true” which is okay.
When I was a Christian I had questions about certain doctrines but I decided to be patient and felt that in time those questions would be answered. Regarding this particular issue my conclusion is that the Holy Spirit that can lead us into all truth is the living Word of God and all writings are simply useful tools. On a personal level, trusting in that inner spirit, I can read any book from any religion or from any author and discern if there’s anything in there that may help me grow.
The nature of inspiration is subject to interpretation as well. There’s no indication that it’s inerrant or infallible. On the contrary, the evidence shows the opposite. Even inspired men are influenced by their own thoughts and emotions, their cultural influences.
Do you know any Christian church that asks it’s women to cover their heads?
well no, nature teaches me that if I don’t cut my hair it will grow long.
or by seeking love with a sincere heart we are truly seeking Jesus. That’s where I think Christianity sometimes puts up doctrinal restraints that are not in line with the spirit. The emphasis should be on the spirit rather than the Iconic image, persona and name of Jesus. Yes, those who worship Jesus can follow that path and the guiding spirit to true love. I think it’s also true that those who with true intent of heart seek true love, will find it and eventually come to understand Jesus.
I’d add that I don’t believe Christianity truly understands the message and purpose of JC. We are all still striving with imperfect understanding.
So, when a person from a different religion and culture reaches out to their concept of God with true intent God responds to them and that response is expressed through their own imperfect understanding and their own culture. Gandhi admired the teachings of Christ and they influenced his own non violent protest. He told a story of the English going to church every Sunday carrying a book. Then they’d come out and the people of India would see how they behaved through the week and wonder what terrible things must be written in that book to make them act that way. It was the Bible. When people reject the Christ of that type of Christian they are not rejecting the true spirit. In fact Gandhi lived a more Christ like life than the Christians he knew in India. As Jesus said
“My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
No he wouldn’t , but our imperfect understanding of God would mean we can be mistaken in what we believe God is saying to us. We may change our interpretation of a certain passage as we grow.
You’re conflating the Word of God with the written word {The Bible} and trying to make some argument that since God is one and all truth is from a single source their should clearly be one book. {At least I think that’s the argument} There’s no logical connection and no evidence to support it. The Bible is a compilation of letters and books that men turned into a single book. The facts show there were other books and other religions have other books they consider holy. The single source, one God, one truth, holds true even if none of those books are divine.
The contradiction is the evidence we have of other books and changes in the books we have. IMO the answer is that since we can trust that single source, we don’t have to elevate physical writings to an unrealistic level.
Within Christianity there are lots of false doctrines, even synagogue of Satan, and our view here is clouded.
There are a lot of gods out there, if you pray to one who is not God and ask for wisdom, who are you asking then? What obligation does God have to someone who prays to Zeus for wisdom in granting him wisdom?
If you don’t know Jesus, but don’t pray to a preconceived other god, but to God as a open term, I suspect that the wisdom granted would lead you to Jesus.
Yes that would go to the gods in their religions, but God does oversee it all and can turn that for the good.
Again you have to ask God, not Allah, not Satan.
This is clearly evident on this board, you put a scripture quote and by the response you can tell what side someone is on. They will either be encouraged to seek more or condemn you for it. It is sharper then any sword, use it anywhere and you will know right away where that person is.
This is based on a constant of creation, we reap what we sow. If we look for love we are looking to take it from someone. We are sowing taking love, which will eventually take away exactly what we are looking for till we have none left and our heart is stone. What I’ve learned is if we desire Love, to give it without expectation.
This reaping what we sow is more the ‘karma’ but we reap more and later then we sow. There is a multiplication effect.
I don’t believe that there is any semantics in the Word of God. There are 2 families mentioned by the Lord, the brothers and sisters you mentioned, members of the family of God and:
My understanding is that we are not to feed the demons inside the unbeliever (if that person is living like the devil, we should not help that effort), but reach the person inside, which is not always possible. This person is a neighbor but not a brother. At a certain point God may make a opening to you to reach this person with His Love.
I agree with your assumed answers to the questions
God is a life giving Spirit, our life (being alive) is due to His Breath/Spirit, which is the same word in Hebrew:
It is very possible, and would be totally in line with God that breath is spirit is wind, they could be the exact same thing.
Used in this context it would refer to the ability to live, not salvation or empowered by His Spirit however.
God does talk to the unbeliever, to call him to Him. God’s path is there with the other paths. But as we sin those paths of God become very hard to find.
{bolding mine}
{mine again}
Now concerning MAt 25
Just want to point out the difference between scripture and the Word. If you Bible shop to get a meaning you want, your intention of your heart is not pure - you what your interpretation, not His, If you search for God’s truth and go about it in a honest way, even if your version is not correct He can and will use it.
To look at the other end of it:
Here is the NASB, a more literal translation, with a closer to the original meaning IMHO. Which shows that the Kingdom of God is not stated to be inside you, but right here (and possibly, I believe just hidden from them).
Here you may be getting into demonetization. Does Jesus require us to comfort the enemy. If you are unable to reach the person, any comfort would be to the enemy.
I think this is a realization some believer come to at some point in their lives, that the person they are really helping is the body of Christ, building it up. It is really comforting Jesus when you help a fellow believer.
From my own experience a while back, I was in great distress and was all alone. I prayed for Jesus to intercede for me (which means for Him to pray for me). He sustained my life during this time. About 2 weeks later I found out that a fellow believer got overly concerned about me and prayed for me at that exact time. This is how the body of Christ works. The members are part of a single body and we are to help each other out. If he was not to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit he would not have sent comfort to me, and therefore would not have sent comfort to Jesus Himself inside me.
The fruit of the Spirit contain more then Love and compassion, which also includes long suffering, one that I wish I didn’t have to endure as much as I have, but I digress, . Also I personally like to differentiate Love vs. love, with Love meaning from God and love being man’s love, it’s my own convention, but from a understanding that human love is not the same as God’s Love. I admit that I can’t scripturally defend that, nor can I deny it, at least not at this time.
I could try to explain it, I really don’t know if it’s my place to do so, nor if I want to put the time into it because it would be very lengthy with numerous cross references. It would be better in a open talking forum then a message board.
Tools can be helpful or not depending on how you use them, and if you know how to use them. Perhaps the most dangerous use of a tool is by the person who thinks he knows how to use it.
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On a personal level, trusting in that inner spirit, I can read any book from any religion or from any author and discern if there’s anything in there that may help me grow.
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Depending on what that inner spirit is this may be possible, or may not IMHO.
Again you are using man’s wisdom to analyze God, when God has stated don’t it won’t work. He does not say He doesn’t recommend it, He states it won’t work, and also He states He will frustrate such efforts.
How do you expect to understand God when you don’t follow His instructions. How can you expect your Ipod to work when you pull out every piece to find out what is on the circuit board? You don’t have to understand how a Ipod works for it to work. You can just read the instructions.
The church at Corinth for one, though long hair is a appropriate cover. Understanding gender based issues in the Bible is understanding the Christ Church relationship. Scriptures state men are as God, and to the sons the Lord says you are gods. Women never get this, and never get the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:22). Women are suppose to be to their husbands as the church is to Christ, and men are suppose to comfort them and Love them as Christ does the church. This goes back to the Garden of Eden, where the sins of Adam and Eve differs.
well no, nature teaches me that if I don’t cut my hair it will grow long.
There is much talk about gender based warnings, and the divine order set by God. We can see the destructive ways of Queen Jezebel, who subjected and emasculated men, and we are warned about the church of Thyatira, which is a big problem in the church today, where a woman has overt of covert control of the men.
I tried this, but until I understood (more of Who) Jesus is, I didn’t know what Love is, though I knew love. It is very different.
Creation was created for Jesus, it is the Father’s Love for His Son. The Father wants us to come to His Son and the only way to the Father is through His Son. Did the thief on the cross show Love, or did he just receive it once He found Jesus?
I’ve heard this, I believe it on Gandhi’s end, but I know there is another aspect to this, the confusion of language from the tower of Babel is a big factor at understanding man to man conversations. If the person is acting in human efforts it can easily be misinterpreted to the negative.
Yes I agree
Again you are using man’s wisdom to deny the instructions that God laid down.
I’m going to try and be brief and address only key issues because of time restraints.
What about Jehovah? Yaweh? Since God is a spirit and he discerns the intent of the heart, does he care which name you’re using to approach him?
um Allah means God in Arabic, it’s not a different God. According to my reading of the NT it’s about the intent of the heart and that determines if you’re praying to God regardless of what name you use. For example
It’s about the true intent of the mind and spirit. These people pray to God but their real concern is about how other men see them. In the other scriptures I mentioned people thought they were worshiping Jesus but their true intent was not to love and serve their fellow man, while those with true intent to serve exhibited by their actions, were rewarded. God who sees the true intent of the heart is not concerned with the proper terminology or what little figure is on your alter.
Read closer.
Stephen in Acts 7 referred to Jews who had not accepted Christ as brothers. and then later criticizes them for not accepting the Holy Spirit. In Acts 9 Saul was referred to as a brother before he had received the HS and been baptized. In Acts 13 Paul refers to his Jewish audience as brothers before they have accepted Christ.
Yes , you can find references to believers as brothers and sisters but all are called because God loves all mankind equally.
Well certainly we shouldn’t give drugs to an addict or booze to an alcoholic in the name of love. We also shouldn’t feed the demons of hatred, injustice, and prejudice but in the past Christians have used verses to justify doing just that and sadly,some still do.
We reach out to the needy as an expression of love for God’s creation.
All are our neighbors and our brothers. The problem is that not everybody realizes it and there is a lot of contention
We are compelled by our human nature to try and interpret the Bible or any other books. That interpretation is clearly influenced by our own human preferences and preconceived ideas. Even if we use the best translation our interpretation will be imperfect.
I’m no scholar but I’ve read in the past that although it does say in your midst the meaning is within, which is why others choose that wording. YMMV
Didn’t Jesus ask us to love our enemies? I’m pretty sure he did. Love eventually overcomes hatred and resentment. Compassion and a living of our connection as creations of God, eventually overcomes the things that separate us and cause contention. It’s easy to love those who treat us well and think as we think. Where’s the challenge in that? The real work is sincerely loving and forgiving those who hate us and treat us badly. We can say we do, but if it isn’t sincerely in our hearts we know we have more work to do.
True, and yet the people in the verse did not know it, meaning they weren’t believers in a traditional sense, just loving people who were still rewarded for sincere acts of love.
Why is it that my interpretation is using man’s wisdom and yours evidently isn’t? People try to interpret the Bible with the help of the spirit that guides us to all truth, and yet we still don’t agree. Perhaps it you who are clinging to the traditional doctrine of men rather than accepting the truth God is trying to show you through me. I don’t see
If the instructions were very clear we wouldn’t have so much disagreement about the manual. 1 I don’t believe there is an instruction manual. 2. Figuring out his instructions usually means undertaking the process of finding out what those instructions are and then the process of making yourself ready and able to follow them. If I read “love your enemy” that doesn’t mean I can automatically begin to love my enemy by deciding to do it. I begin the path of learning how to do that until it becomes a part of who I am rather than something I am attempting to do that feels like a real struggle.
I find that to be a very unfortunate reading and interpretation. An example of teaching the traditions of men IMHO. MArk 7: 13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
and that was the path that worked for you. Great. I’m saying that for others, another path might be the right one for them as long as they seek truth and love, the main attributes of God. We should honor that, and their path, trusting it to God, while looking for the fruits of the spirit, love compassion.
Yet the scriptures tell us repeatedly that loving one another and acts of true mercy and compassion indicate we are following the path of Christ.
The thief on the cross presents another theological riddle. We don’t know anything about his life before the crucifixion and we’re not sure what Jesus meant by paradise.
Again, says who? Another person interpreting the scripture differently right?
You did make some interesting points which I had to pray about.
The name which we call God, the sound that comes out of our mouths is pretty much meaningless as long as our hearts call out to God. If you are talking about the God of the Bible, no matter what you call Him, as long as that’s what you mean in your heart that’s what He hears. And yes, I agree if you call out God, but in your heart try to impress men, God hears that too in that way.
Stephen uses the terms “brothers and fathers”, when Jesus is referring to children of God He uses “brothers, sisters and mothers”, and He reserves the term Father for the heavenly father, even saying don’t call anyone Father except your heavenly Father (Matt 23:9). So since the scriptures can not be broken, Stephan’s use of “fathers” can not be referring to the family of God, but perhaps the human family.
Stephen was also in a no win situation in this world, much like the Lord was during the Crucifixion. He had the words of the Holy Spirit and a face like a angel but the people could not hear Him.
In Acts 9, verse 5 Saul refers to Jesus as Lord, 1 Cor 12:3 tells us no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. So Saul did have the Holy Spirit on him, though it had not yet come with power.
The scriptures state many are called, but few are chosen. As I understand it salvation is open to all, but not all have callings. God does desire all be saved.
Can you provide a cite that God loves all mankind equally?
If a demon has controlled someone to the point it is really the demon living their life through them love can not reach them. It is like trying to love a black hole, the love just disappears. It is love that they crave, but they can never get enough. At this point other methods might be used by God to reach them, including hate (Esau I hated), handing one over to Satan (done by Paul, also done to Job), brought into the pit (Jonah 2:6), Isolation/loneliness (David Ps 25:16, also may be Outer Darkenss in Mathew)
My belief and my experience is that God Loves us so much He is willing to do anything, even hating us (or isolating us which is much worse IMHO), to bring us to Him.
Most, if not all of the ‘tough Love’ methods involve prayer on the part of the believer and letting the person fall into the hands of God, or Satan. We are not suppose to take a active role in hate, though I’m not sure about activally avoiding someone, I suspect not either.
This seems a bit like creation worship.
We are to Love our neighbor as ourselves.
Just something to consider, perhaps the Kingdom of God is superimposed on our world but we can’t perceive it. The Transfiguration was the Kingdom of God IMHO, which was made visible to Peter, James and John, it was not internal, but external.
He does say love your enemies, One issue I have had trouble with is does that mean love the enemy (Satan).
Perhaps I was hasty how did you come up with your interpretation? I came to mine by revelation, not seeking it, just seeking the Lord, and out of ‘nowhere’ scripture linked together, sometimes I was awakened by a revelation. It was not by study, nor study guides nor any standard learning methods.
I have found that these things, if of God, have always been 2 sides, meaning we both benefit. If that be that you have something to teach me direct about scriptures, or for me to go deeper still, like the case for Stephen, I don’t know.
I would agree with your interpretation of the scripture love your enemy, you really have to find out what it means and how it applies to you.
Scriptural gender based issues are very hard to see in today’s society, but God does give very clear warning many many times about it in both OT and NT - He means what He says. Stepping outside of this really tears apart families, leads to unloved children, horribly oppresses men, and makes women unhappy and unsatisfied. It is a very big problem today. This is another thread in itself.
Yes I understand your point, but I believe it’s seek the Lord, find Love. It’s the Lord that is the source of all Love, how can we know how to Love without going to the teacher?
We do know about his life, he admitted he deserved the cross.
Glad to hear you agree. IMHO if we are called to worship God in spirit and truth, and the Holy Spirit was sent to lead us into all truth, then God, whose qualities we can’t really comprehend, and sees the true intent of the heart, will see that intent for anyone, in any culture, in any religion, any language. Yes, there will be imperfections and influences by other factors. just as there are in Christianity, but I believe God will respond to the true seeking heart.
To clarify, I think people who worship to get attention and praise from men get attention attention and praise from men rather than spiritual growth, because that was the true intent of their heart rather than seeking truth and love. Those are the folks Jesus spoke of when he said “depart from me” I think sometimes people in a religious organization sincerely don’t realize that they are worshiping the organization rather than seeking God. The Bahai have a saying I think relates.
“We are drawn to the light and sometimes make the mistake of worshiping the lamp”
I think he meant brothers, as fellow Jews, but the point was that brothers and sisters doesn’t always mean those who believe in Christ.
I guess that means non believers have the Holy Spirit as well since at that point Paul was an unbeliever. I’d also point out that Jesus says some that call him Lord are evildoers. Then there’s this in James 2: 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
How does that fit with with 1 Cor 2:3? How does that affect the concept that Jesus referred to believers as brothers. Remember, he said those that do the will of God, not just believe correctly. You have to be careful to not read the scriptures selectively in order to support a preconceived notion.
Do you seriously need a cite for this? Isn’t all mankind his creation? How could it be any other way? How about, for God so loved the world etc. remember that one?
I tend to think of it as leaving us to bear the consequences of our own choices. If we give in to fear, selfishness, lust, greed, whatever our true intent may be, we bear the consequences of those choices, until we decide to choose love and truth and align ourselves with the Holy Spirit.
Comon, we are called to love one another as Jesus loved us. How is that creation worship? In 1 Cor 12 there’s an analogy I like about the body. You seem to want to separate things into categories but the spirit wants to bring them together. There are different cells of the body , different parts, but all really one.
right. Since we are discussing supposed differences between categories of brothers sisters and neighbors consider this.
When asked what are the two greatest commandments Jesus said Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. and love your neighbor as yourself.
In Luke 10 the preface to the parable of the good Samaritan is
I don’t think there is a separation of categories between brothers as believers and neighbors. I think as we learn to love we must ask ourselves what love requires in different situations. Thats how we grow. As Jesus says. It’s easy to love those who love us and think as we do. More is asked of us.
I won’t pretend to understand how it works. I know it’s beyond me. The way I see it for now is we are all connected in spirit, even if we can’t see it or feel it. That inner spirit, calls us toward truth and love, and the unity in God that is our spiritual reality. The world’s many distractions tempt us to have other priorities. The more we learn to truly love and treat others with compassion the more we help them to listen to that guiding spirit. In that, all people are my brothers and sisters regardless of belief. We categorize things in the physical world for the sake of communication, but the spirit that connects us all is one.
I don’t know. We couldn’t choose anything if we didn’t have something to choose.
Because I think intent is important I try to study seeking truth, and holding that sincere intent in my heart and mind. I believe I’m supposed to use the gifts God gave me. My mind, logic, reason, and also invite that guiding spirit to help me use those gifts correctly. I’m not immune to ego, or bias, so I try to be careful not to let preconceived notions steer my thinking too much. I am also aware that I have a lot to learn and believe life and it’s experiences aide in that.
While I think those scriptural references are the influences of an ancient male dominated culture and it’s incorrect to take them as God’s words. Love, and the respect and give and take it calls for in a household is enough of a relationship guide. Love doesn’t require that one gender dominate the other, but rather we share and grow as equals. God is no respecter of persons right?
Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened.
OKay…I really have to be done now. thanks again for the time you put in. Walk with God.
The Holy Spirit can call anyone out of any worship, even people who once worshiped Satan are called to Jesus. That does not make Satan worship a road to Jesus, but it is the call of Jesus which is the road, the way, the truth. Ultimately the goal is to all to come to God through Jesus, we ARE His inheritance. That does not change the Word God gave us, nor the promise to His chosen people Israel.
It could be, here is what is said about the Jewish people:
There is the family of God, Satan, and the human family among others.
Some people have the Spirit of God from birth, John the Baptist is one such person (John 1:16), as well as some of the Jewish people in the OT. There is also a indication that God will not count the sins of one’s youth against one (before they know what to chose). So Saul may have had the Spirit of God from birth.
As for the people who call Jesus Lord but did not good, that is in front of Jesus when every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. At that time things are made clear.
I don’t know why the James 2:19 cite is, but it is a better translation IMHO saying God is one, instead of there is one God.
Again to do the will of God you have to be walking in His Spirit. Saul was not, though the Holy Spirit was on him, Paul was. 1 Cor 2:3 states Paul came in his weakness. Paul commonly boasts of his weaknesses, this gives God all the glory, as it is saying I couldn’t do this, I’m too weak, but since I did do it, it proved God did it through me.
Yes. I honestly don’t know how it could be any other way, but don’t know if this can be supported. What I can come up with is the most love God can have for us is for Him to die for us. This is defined as the greatest love (possible). Meaning the people who are saved God loves to the absolute maximum, more Love just doesn’t exist. But what about people who are not saved? Jesus did not die for them, though He offered, the actual death for the person did not happen. Does this mean that God did not have the same Love, or is there another way to achieve the exact same amount of Love by another means.
There is reaping what we sow, that works for both things (good and bad). And yes God will use that to bring you to realize your sin. Then there is the process of accepting Jesus, usually through the message of His unconditional Love and desiring it, but sometimes running towards Him from Satan’s hate, receiving His Spirit, and Walk in His way of Love.
This is quite different then your method which is love brings the Holy Spirit, but I contend we can’t know Love till Jesus teaches us, we are attracted to that Love then find out how to Love others. This is why Jesus said the first commandment is the most important, Love God first. It is the key to learn what Love is.
The body of Christ is the church. And yes it does work as a body, with Jesus coordinating it. As a member of the body we rarely see the workings of the body as a body, but occasionally He lets us. One time I was in deep, life threatening distress and prayed for Jesus to intercede (pray) for me, I found out later that a fellow believer was prompted at that exact moment to pray for me. Nowhere does it indicate that this body is all of humanity.
I have also come across people involved in witchcraft, so called white witches, they want to do good, but they are in contact with demons, and they empower them. I would not ask these people praying for me.
right. Since we are discussing supposed differences between categories of brothers sisters and neighbors consider this.
When asked what are the two greatest commandments Jesus said Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. and love your neighbor as yourself.
In Luke 10 the preface to the parable of the good Samaritan is
I’ll agree that we are to love our neighbors, and our enemies, so as for if there is a difference between brothers and neighbors, from the standpoint of love I don’t think so, if there is it may jsut be a matter of degree. The part I disagree with you with is how you love them, in human effort, or in the Spirit of God, as Jesus Loves us. Which I state again can only be known if we understand who Jesus is and how much He does Love us. There is no other god that is worshiped that shows anywhere near the degree of love that Jesus has.
We all struggle with the flesh. In the NT God provides wisdom by just asking, it’s a gift. You don’t see Paul studying. The only time that may come close is when he is in prison and asks for parchments, which is assumed to be scriptures. But having been in a similar situation myself, I know what’s that like. When someone got me a Bible, I cried for joy.
God made man and woman differently, they used to be one being (called Adam or man), but God split him into two. Their differences come together again via marriage to make one being again. The ideal as I understand it is that though Jesus is away from us, He holds us, comforts us, guides us. This is what the man is suppose to do for the woman. The woman benefits from having a Christ figure to physically hold, protect, and comfort her. The man is suppose to Love his wife to the point of laying down his life if required. That absolute Love for her to the point of death I believe is a God given part of man.
We also have corruptions of the ways of the world, gender oppressions - these are not God’s way. But perhaps the absolute worst is that of Jezebel, female superiority, which is exactly opposite God’s plan, and is the very temptation Satan used to cause the fall of humanity. (deceiving Eve caused Adam to willingly chose to die to be with Eve).
OK, it was fun as usual, but I would like a cite that God loves all mankind equally.
