Good point. I knew they still had a brain drain going on but I assumed that a lot more people in the past wanted to get out when the Chinese government was less willing to let them go than today. Still, I think you’d have to say that China is still at least nominally communist and they aren’t imprisoning their citizens…which was Bryan Ekers question.
-XT
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Good point. I knew they still had a brain drain going on but I assumed that a lot more people in the past wanted to get out when the Chinese government was less willing to let them go than today. Still, I think you’d have to say that China is still at least nominally communist and they aren’t imprisoning their citizens…which was Bryan Ekers question.
-XT
[/QUOTE]
China is more capitalist than communist, at least in the urbanized areas. I’m not too familiar with what system is being used in the agrarian sector of the economy. They are a one party state, so they are still sort of Lennist (or Maoist) in that respect, and that’s probably one reason that’s driving people away. With an education, you can make very good money in China these days, but you just don’t have the political freedom you do in the West. Anyone who wants to have more than one child has reason to leave, for example (even though China has relaxed it’s One Child Policy a bit in recent years).
…because it holds out the promise of academics and intellectuals becoming the ruling class. Academics (philiosphers, chiefly) feel that they are experts at telling people how to live; they like communism because they think they will be able to mold society in their vision. Of course, these people are usually slated for execution, once a real communist regime gets up and running.
[QUOTE=ralph124c]
..because it holds out the promise of academics and intellectuals becoming the ruling class. Academics (philiosphers, chiefly) feel that they are experts at telling people how to live; they like communism because they think they will be able to mold society in their vision. Of course, these people are usually slated for execution, once a real communist regime gets up and running.
[/QUOTE]
No, I think it appeals to intellectuals because when you start reading Marx he makes a lot of sense. He writes well and makes a good case. This is especially true if you are young, have little labor experience, and know little about economics. Marx gives you a compelling vision of the world and why it works the way it does. That sort of all-encompassing worldview seems to appeal to self-appointed intellectuals.
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Well, again, one has to ask WHY people post on Wiki or on message boards like this…WHY people post information or answer questions. Is it to help out their fellow man? Maybe. But I doubt that is their sole or even primary motivation.
[/quote]
How would you test it? And is there a practical difference?
[QUOTE=brazil84]
How would you test it?
[/QUOTE]
Make all contributions anonymous and don’t allow any advertising or any other recognition. Then see how many people/companies continue to develop open sources software. My guess is it will drop to something approaching zero.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
And is there a practical difference?
[/QUOTE]
It depends on what your goals are I guess…and what you are trying to achieve. Depending on how you answer that will depend on if there is a practical difference. I don’t think open source development is very much like a communist modeled system…I think it’s an extension of a free market (along with a bit of ego polishing). However it is what it is.
-XT
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Make all contributions anonymous and don’t allow any advertising or any other recognition.
[/quote]
That’s how things work on most message boards already. People use psuedonyms.
Well, you’re the one who’s claiming there’s a difference, aren’t you?
[QUOTE=brazil84]
That’s how things work on most message boards already. People use psuedonyms.
[/QUOTE]
A handle is not the same thing as being completely anonymous. You can’t post as xtisme and I can’t post as brazil84. If we all posted as ‘anonymous’ how much information do you suppose you’d get? Do you post because you want to help your fellow man or for other reasons concerning recognition? Would companies like Java or Mozilla develop ‘free’ software without recognition or advertising?
[QUOTE=brazil84]
Well, you’re the one who’s claiming there’s a difference, aren’t you?
[/QUOTE]
Yes I did…same as the others who were making a counter claim. And I’ve explained WHY I think there is a difference as well. The thing is, it’s going to be based on what we mean by communism here. If communism simply equals free then I suppose a case can be made. However, ‘free’ open source software usually has more aspects of a free market involved than some kind of pie in the sky altruistic motivations of the developers. There is recognition of their work…the polishing of ones reputation and ego. There are advertising dollars associated. In some cases (like with RedHat) there are eventual commercial interests directly involved.
Communism is all about people selflessly working toward the betterment of their fellow man, or of society as a whole. From those of ability to those who need and all that jazz. I don’t see Open Source development as meeting that model. If you or others would like to make a counter case let’s see it.
-XT
[QUOTE=xtisme]
A handle is not the same thing as being completely anonymous. You can’t post as xtisme and I can’t post as brazil84. If we all posted as ‘anonymous’ how much information do you suppose you’d get? Do you post because you want to help your fellow man or for other reasons concerning recognition?
[/quote]
Just to help fellow man. Except when I’m arguing.
Why do you keep trying to push the discussion towards software development? I specifically said that I was thinking more about things like Wikipedia and internet message boards when I made my statement.
Please respond to the argument that I actually made. Thank you.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
Just to help fellow man. Except when I’m arguing.
[/QUOTE]
And you would do so if you were completely anonymous? And you represent a majority opinion?
[QUOTE=brazil84]
Why do you keep trying to push the discussion towards software development? I specifically said that I was thinking more about things like Wikipedia and internet message boards when I made my statement.
[/QUOTE]
Two things. First, I already responded to your statement about Wiki and instant message boards. If you didn’t like the answer I gave then do more than one line rebuttals that ask more questions than they answer. Secondly, the majority of people making this assertion (i.e. that certain aspects of IT are like communism) generally mean various open source efforts.
If you would like to make an actual case why you think Wiki or message boards like this are like communism…well, make a case. You haven’t done so thus far…and have even admitted earlier in the thread that you really don’t know much about communism.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
Please respond to the argument that I actually made. Thank you.
[/QUOTE]
As I have already done so I will just respond with…you are welcome.
-XT
[QUOTE=xtisme]
And you would do so if you were completely anonymous?
[/quote]
Yes.
I can speak only for myself. However, in a hypothetical communist society, would people make their contributions anonymously?
And then when I questioned your response, you quickly changed the subject, as follows:
Me: I was thinking more about things like Wikipedia and internet message boards (the ones that are free, anyway). Seems to me that a lot of people post information and answer questions simply for the satisfiaction of a job well done and helping other people.
You: Well, again, one has to ask WHY people post on Wiki or on message boards like this…WHY people post information or answer questions. Is it to help out their fellow man? Maybe. But I doubt that is their sole or even primary motivation.
Me: How would you test it? And is there a practical difference?
You: Make all contributions anonymous and don’t allow any advertising or any other recognition. Then see how many people/companies continue to develop open sources software. My guess is it will drop to something approaching zero.
See? I asked a question that related to message boards and wiki, and you responded as if the question were about software development.
Please respond to the question that I actually ask, as opposed to the question that you wish I had asked.
Ok, so just admit that you don’t feel like responding to my point, so you will respond to a different point.
What exactly did I say? I guess it doesn’t matter really. Because, according to your logic, the majority of people don’t know a lot about communism. Therefore you are justified in pretending that I don’t know a lot either. Or something like that.
I’d say the lingering support for communism in academia is due to the sheltered nature of the academic lifestyle. People in academia aren’t living in a communist system obviously. But they’re also not really living in a capitalist system either. So their knowledge of both communism and capitalism is based on theory and second-hand reports rather than direct experience. And, as many of us have noted, communism does present an attractive theoretical face.
[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
But they’re also not really living in a capitalist system either. So their knowledge of both communism and capitalism is based on theory and second-hand reports rather than direct experience..
[/QUOTE]
“Not really living in a capitalist system”?
OH-HO-HO-HO! It is to laugh!
Priced a college textbook, lately? Prof write em, use em, choose em, & get paid for writing em, too!
Not in tune with capitalism? HA!
As I’ve said before, mere profit does not a capitalist system make. The fact that professors are able to make a good living by writing a book that they can then order students to buy without being able to consider any alternatives is a good demonstration of how immune academics are from the reality of the free market.
I read a funny story in the paper, back when the USSR was still around, being its fun party animal self: apparently the public buses in Moscow had an honesty box system for the fares. One day, the government decided to do an audit, and they found out most people weren’t paying. And they were surprised.
It might be bullshit, but perhaps there’s a lesson in there somewhere.
It’s not uncommon for public transportation to operate on the honesty system. The Light Rail here in CA has vending machines for tickets, but I’ve never been checked to see if I actually had one. I remember Munich’s subway system being the same-- honor system.