Will I really go to hell?

Great Debates
41

OK, I’m going to try and answer these one at a time.

Should people reject atheism because of the American Atheists?
Well assuming you mean that American Atheists give atheists worldwide a black eye; I think the answer is no. One small group is not representative of the entire group.

** Should they reject Islam because of the Taliban? **
No, for the same reasons as above.

**Should they reject Christianity because of Fred Phelps? **
I don’t know who Fred Phelps is. But I think it’s safe to assume it’s someone who gives Christianity a black eye.

I think I see what you’re trying to say. Just because some Christians are twits, doesn’t mean they all are. I think the problem runs deeper than that. It’s almost like it’s ingrained in them to say or think this stuff. I think what I’m trying to say is that I have a problem with Christian doctrine. (Is that the word I’m looking for? See, this is why I try to stay out of theological debates. :slight_smile: )

I’ll think on this some more and try to figure out a way to explain it better.

42

Oh, I’m gonna love hearing the logical proof of these positions…

43

It’s trivial, Vorlon.

Definitions:

Let A = what Jesus said
Let Not A = what the liars say

Axiom:

A = A

QED

:smiley:

44

So, Lib, I recognize your argument here. Any entity who would condemn someone to burn for eternity is not Jesus (God). Right? Anyone who finds in the Bible a doctrine of hatred, cruelty and judgment is not reading the book correctly. Right?

So (your turn to accept for the sake of argument) if you were to die and get judged and let into heaven only to find out that sure enough God/Jesus was condemning billions of people to spend eternity burning (or some other awful torture) would you retract your commitment to said god? Basically, if His4ever and the like turn out to be interpreting the message properly then Jesus is undeserving of worship, whether he created us or not. Agreed?

DaLovin’ Dj

45

DJ

Absolutely. I would not recognize this creature. And I would spend eternity cursing it.

46

I COULD try to dodge the basic question (and be disarming in the process) by saying, “I’m not God. I don’t decide who goes to Heaven or Hell. I don’t know for certain that I’M going to Heaven, let alone where non-Christians will end up.”

But for what it’s worth, I’ll point (as C.S. Lewis did long bfore me) to Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats.

In the gospel, Jesus says that on the last day, God will separate the just from the unjust, like a shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. To the just, He will say, “Well done, faithful servants. For I was hungry and you fed me. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you comforted me. I was in prison, and you visited me.” And they will say, Lord, WHEN did we do any of those things?" And He will say, “Whatever you did for the least of my brethren, you did for me.”

Then, He will say to the unjust, “Away with you, worthless servants. For I was hungry and you did not feed me. I was naked, and you did not clothe me. I was sick, and you did not comfort me. I was in prison, and you did not visit me.” And they will ask, “Lord, WHEN did we see you and refuse to help you?” And He will say, “Whatever you did not do for the least of my brethren, you did not do for me.”

It seems clear from this parable that at least SOME people are serving Jesus without knowing it. And it’s equally clear that people who THINK they’re Jesus’ devoted servants aren’t going to make it into Heaven.

So… by this reasoning, might there be Jews, Moslems, Hindus or agnostics out there who are doing more to serve a God they don’t recognize than I am? Who are more worthy of Heaven than I am?

Yes… I’d have to say so.

47

What of the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people who roamed the earth before Jesus ever existed? We’re they all simply logs to be cast into the fires of hell as well?

48

DJ, at the risk of sounding conceited, I was having just that conversation with God last Sunday night. He’s on notice now. If He is indeed the deity His4Ever portrays, I will renounce my faith and join many of those closest to me in hell. In my beliefs, He created me, He knows me, and hang it, if He didn’t want me to be so stubborn and cantankerous, He shouldn’t have created me this way in the first place! :slight_smile:

Personally, I believe that everytime I tell someone they’re condemned to Hell, I come that much closer to condemning myself. While, technically, as a Christian, I probably won’t be sent there, I figure such actions will count severely against me, possibly enough to outweigh any mere words I’ve said. I don’t know.

Oh, and Stephi, you’re in the toughest forum on the SDMB, but you’re doing fine! You might also be amused by a cartoon my priest told me about. It showed a man lying on the ground at swordpoint looking up at the guy holding the sword saying, “So, tell me about this Jesus Christ guy?!” He used it in a sermon as an example of how not to witness! Later, he said he should have borrowed by fencing sword to illustrate it – this sword is over 3 feet long, about 2 inches wide, and black steel!

Lib, old friend, you’ve got company!
CJ

49

Accepting/Loving/Believing in Jesus/God will get you into heaven - but once you do accept/love/believe, you will automatically do ‘good things’.

50

This may be a hijakc, but the conflict between works and faith is as old as the Epistles themselves. I’m afraid I’ve seen too many corrupt Christians, both “born again” and otherwise to believe that professing a belief that Christ is one’s Saviour automatically leads to doing good things – Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Robert Tilton, and Cardinal Law come to mind off the top of my head.

I think a lot of the book of James is reacting to people who proclaim themselves Christians but act in a most un-Christian manner. Here’s an earlier section of James (2:14-23)

Since James said it better than I can and with more authority, I defer to his words.

CJ

51

Well, you’re the logic master, but I think there’s an unspoken assumption here. Specifically, that the person seeking love is aware of (1) and (2).

Given some of the things done in both their names by people, it doesn’t seem outside the realm of reason that a person might come (rightly or wrongly) to a different conclusion.

52

Bull pockey. You obviously haven’t met enough people who accept/love/believe in Jesus/God.

Automatically, eh? Does Jesus override your free will, or do you just go on autopilot?

As cjhoworth said (and as I was going to, but left my post very short so as to seem that much more profound :wink: ), read the Epistle of James. Faith without works is like a body without a spirit - dead and useless. And assuming these good works follow “automatically” has very strong implications for free will.

53

I think religion is like a virus, it spreads itself in order to survive because it cannot survive without a host.

Now if you wanted to make a sucessful virus you would give it some characteristics that would help it spread from person to person as quickly and effectively as possible. Since this is a virus of the mind rather than of the computer or of the body you can imagine what some of those characteristics might be.

Such as:

1.) Making it clear that your virus is the “one true virus,” if you don’t take in and then pass on the virus (rather like a chain letter) then bad things will happen to you. Nobody wants bad things to happen to them or anyone they love so they try and pass it on to friends, children, etc.

2.) Make it clear that great rewards will come to you if you accept the virus’s mission. You get to go to heaven and heaven is this really great place. Never you mind that you only get to go to heaven after you are dead, death is scary.

3.) Make sure the virus is set to exterminate any other virus’s that might come along and try to displace it. Make it clear that the penalty for toying with other viruses is very bad things.

4.) Make sure that everyone who has gotten the virus keeps it by having them come back regularly to some place where it can be reinforced. Such places become nodes for the virus and allow for better transmission than any one carrier.

If the virus has any chance of surviving at all then it will have to display at least a few of these traits. This idea came to me when I was reading about meme theory, its is interesting to think of religion as something that evolved (and is still evolving) if you don’t buy in to all that revealed dogma crap.

54

:rolleyes"

55

Well, fuck. What the hell was that?

Should be: :rolleyes:

Of course, now the dramatic effect has been ruined.

56

I agree with you, Manny.

That’s why I say that if the one whom you call Jesus is not the one that I’ve identified here, then it certainly deserves no worship. It isn’t that you’re wrong at all.

57

Truth, what is truth?

“The only true knowledge is knowing that you know nothing.” – Socrates

58

It doesn’t matter how many people think someone is going to hell because they don’t believe in this or that.

No one will go to hell unless they desire to go. That eliminates most of us. The ones that do, probably will not stay long, hell is not eternal.

Those who teach the fear of hell and damnation are a lot more likely to go there than those who don’t. Here I am going by NDE reports of hell. It was the preachers of hell that mostly had that experience. Interesting?

59

Hell isn’t eternal? Himmm…And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 7

Sure sounds eternal to me.

Where does it say that only those who desire to go to hell go there? I don’t see that in my Bible anywhere.

I wouln’t base anything on nde experiences no matter how many people have them.

60

Fortunately, His4Ever, there is one and only one person to whom you may shut the door to heaven. (Hint: it’s not any of us.)