I don’t want to say who is and isn’t going to heaven lest I be accused of playing God. In the end it’s up to God. All I’m able to do is say what His word says which is that no one goes to heaven but through Christ. John 3:36 says He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth upon him.
You must draw your own conclusions from that.
Lekatt, I know that the Bible isn’t God nor do I worship it. But I do believe that’s it’s His word and the final authority as to what is true and what isn’t. Therefore, what am I supposed to do, just ignore it and base everything on feelings and experience? I’m afraid I can’t do that.
Actually, there are atheists on the board who used to be theists, and vice-versa. And some people have had their faith (or lack of it) confirmed and edified by posts in these discussions.
His4Ever wrote:
It’s fine to read the book. But your teacher is the Holy Spirit, and is the final authority. He is, after all, God. And as you say, the book isn’t.
The rich man went to Hell because he was selfish and greedy-not because he didn’t accept Jesus. But because he didn’t even pay attention to Lazarus. Nowhere does it say that Lazarus accepted Jesus, but he still went to Heaven.
Don’t you get it? It’s not for you to say.
And if someone has never HEARD of Christ, or the person who told him did so at sword point, and he rejected it, then he goes to Hell? Even if he were a living saint?
I don’t think that verse means what you think it means. I recognize that you are just quoting the King James translation, but I think they got it wrong; take a look at the Greek: ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον: ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ’ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ’ αὐτόν. I would translate this as: “The one believing in the son has eternal life, but the one rejecting the son will not see eternal life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” The word “ἀπειθῶν” does not mean “not believing,” it means “rejecting” (The online Greek lexicon at greekbible.com offers: 1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with). It should be clear that someone not believing in God may not have rejected him; for example, he simply may not know him. It does not condemn those who simply do not believe, but only those who very specifically reject Jesus.
Advertently or inadvertently, Amazonian has made (perhaps through satire?) a subtle and important point, one worth thinking about.
What “I” have is never a religion: it’s the truth, the way things are–Reality. Dictionaries closed, the “objective view” abandoned (for what could be more intimate and personal, and less coolly objective, than, eg, the relation of soul to Lord?), the term “religion” places upon a plane of equality that which cannot by nature be regarded as equal to anything not itself.
Likewise, “I” have the world; “you” have a mere “world-view.”
I’m not saying this is the best, or only, way to think of these things. But the fact the people do think of things this way, and that the very nature of the subject lends itself to that sort of thinking, is worth pointing out.
That’s how I translate it as well, although one interesting meaning, not in your listing, is apathetic. The word, whose root is [symbol]apeiqew[/symbol], is found nowhere else in the gospels. It is an agglutinated word formed from [symbol]a[/symbol] (without) and [symbol]peiqes[/symbol] (feeling).
Libertarina, a christina, said Many will call Him Lord and He will say He never knew them.
I am worried about that myself.
AM I good enough?
How can we know we will get there (Heaven?)
God doesn’t set a mountain before you that you must climb and prove yourself. Vanilla, you are worthy of heaven just as you are.
I suggest you stop reading the scary parts and concentrate on the love that God has for you.
The following quote by Emmanuel says it all.
“There are no guarantees.
From the viewpoint of fear, none are strong enough.
From the viewpoint of love, none are necessary.”
When one is in the love viewpoint all things become clear.
Love
But they weren’t totally, permanently dead. It wasn’t final. They were in an area where deception was possible, in my opinion anyway. When a person is really dead and laying in the casket, that person really knows the truth then. Where he is is final and irrreversable.
Vanilla, as a Christian I assume that you realize that we’re only worthy through the precious blood of Christ. As sinners, we have no worthiness of our own. Please don’t take your eyes off of Him and onto feelings and experiences. His truth in this area is clear.
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I gathered from this debate that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, correct?
So was it impossible to get to heaven before Jesus came around?
I have doubts of that but I don’t have enough information to make a judgement.
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Vanilla, in my humble opinion that verse is most likely talking about those who’ve done all kinds of wonderful works, done a lot of good deeds, made an acknowledgement of Christ mentally, but never really accepted Him into their heart.
The fact that Jesus says He never knew them should tell you right there that they never had a personal relationship with Him because Jesus knows His true sheep "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. John 10:14
Also in John 10:27 He says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Therefore, in the scripture you listed above, the ones He is talking to were never His sheep because He never knew them. The verses in John clearly show that if they were His sheep, He would have known them.
Vanilla, you can know you’re going to heaven because you’ve done what the Bible says to do to be saved. You’ve accepted Jesus as your Savior believing He died for your sins, am I right? If not, my apologies.
I’ll leave you with these scriptures:
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:112-13
I’m not sure how to explain that, I’m afraid. I don’t believe it was impossible to be saved before Jesus came to the earth because in the Old Testament, God directed them to give animal sacrifices to cover their sin until the perfect, once and for all sacrifice of Christ came. They looked forward to that, in my view. There are Scriptures about Jesus in the Old Testament if we recognize them such as Psalm 22. It couldn’t have just been about David, because the things happening didn’t happen to him. Anyway, I have to go now.
I notice you said “in my opinion”, that’s right, but in my opinion, and I’m the one who experienced it, God is only love. Thousands of other NDEers agree with this also.
Leave Vanilla alone, to tell someone they “have no worthiness of their own” shows the extreme fear being taught by your brand of religion. It is not the Christianity I know. It is not taught by Jesus. Therefore it is not true. Vanilla is as worthy and precious to God as anyone else, right now, this moment, and forever. Quit trying to play God.
“That verse” refers to Christ telling people they never knew Him.
My take on that is there are people who are as absolutely convinced that they are Christians as they are that the sun will rise tomorrow if not more so, but who will find themselves disappointed because they have only mouthed empty words. That includes me, by the way.
Of those closest to me, very few are Christians by His4Ever’s definition, and I’m not always sure I fit it myself. Their actions, their deeds, and the way their lives reflect their beliefs, however, fit my definition of Christians better than say, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Robert Tilton, or many others I could name. I cannot see what’s in a person’s heart; only how their lives reflect it, and I can’t see all of that. Will I lose my chance at heaven because I won’t be starting a food drive this year (“Lord, when did we see you hungry and not feed you?”), or will I lose it because I spent the past couple of days associating with Wiccans in love and charity, or will God give me more of a break than I’m willing to give myself?
I don’t know, and it’s not my place to say. All I can do is “Let my life be Witness.”
