I certainly wouldn’t describe Fatah as a “collaborator regime.” They’re the sort of groups that - while certainly no friends of Israel - are willing to sit and talk. I am certainly not saying that Israel needs to set up a puppet- the Palestinians would never buy it, for one. But once we decide on a partner in the peace process, we need to have their backs.
I’d agree with you if I thought there was any chance at all that a single democratic state would protect both Israelis and Palestinians. I don’t think that would happen, though. Any representative democracy would be torn apart by the extremists if you tried to shove everyone into it.
You’re right that the model for this cannot be one where Gaza is kept down though. Palestinians need true prosperity so they have a reason to uphold the social order - it’s basic social contract theory. Keeping them in poverty or intentionally dependant on Israel would be a mistake.
I think the ideal model would be something like the EU, where there is an Israel, and there is a Palestine, and these countries ensure that people of both groups have a sovereign body in their corner; but people can live and work anywhere.
I think getting to that point will take a lot of work and a lot of time building up trust, but I think it is achievable.
Not that it is a bad idea (It is a good idea). Rather, I think there are powers who are invested in making sure that never happens. They want a destabilized region and, it seems, sadly easy to throw a spanner in the works to avoid any peace. Anything to cause Israel problems.
IIRC there was a peace deal negotiated between Israel and the PLO. It had taken years. But, a deal was reached. Shortly after there was a terrorist attack and it all fell apart. I may have the details wrong but I do remember being amazed that a years long peace negotiation was so easily derailed. Also, wasn’t an Israeli Prime Minister assassinated by another Israeli for trying for peace? (Looked it up: Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir at a peace rally…Amir is Israeli).
This isn’t part of some “ancient war between Arabs and Jews” as if is often portrayed in the American media. There are specific ideologies in play, both in the Arab world and in Israel as well as in places like Iran, that drive the conflict. Push people away from these ideologies, resolve the underlying issues, prevent countries like Iran from meddling - and peace will come.
Yes, Yigal Amir is a far-right piece of extremist shit who has as much blood on his hands as any Hamas leader. He murdered Rabin precisely because Rabin was a diplomatic genius when it came to peace.
Rabin did secure lasting peace with Jordan, so at least his work wasn’t completely undone.
Anybody remember the Tet Offensive from Vietnam circa 1968? I’m getting some of the same vibes here. The offensive ended up pretty much destroying the Viet Cong as a major combatant (most of the fighting from then on was then done by N. Vietnamese troops) and while the USA/S. Vietnam ‘won’ the battle, the political ramifications in the USA made it one of the things that turned public opinion against the war.
AND NO, I am not saying they were identical, Israel isn’t able to pack up and go home like the USA eventually did, and they certainly have the capability to destroy Hamas, or at least severely degrade it. But once the operation to destroy Hamas is done and the death and devastation totaled (and despite the horrendous Israeli loss of life, I would bet money that when the ‘war’ is declared over by Israel more Gazan civilians are dead than Israeli), you will still have a million or so people living in even more abject poverty and having an easy target to blame for their sufferings (doesn’t matter what is true…Americans have recently proven that a substantial number of folks will believe most anything). So the ghastly cycle will begin again.
And I do believe (albeit without firm proof) the Iran has a lot to do with it; in one stroke they will roil the Mideast political landscape, cause even more back-biting in Israeli politics (once the ‘war’ is over), derail Saudi-Israeli relations (it is even money who Iran hates more) and position itself to cause future chaos to it’s rivals/enemies.
The Persians have been playing this game for several thousand years now; I suspect they are fairly good at it. We shall see if those opposing them can play the game just as well…
Hamas is a terrorist group, they are not the government. Your assumption that Israel is at fault for the mass murder of concert goers and the taking of women and children as hostages is incorrect.
If it’s Israel that appoints them, rather than them just (re)filling in a vacuum left by Hamas, then that’s how they will be perceived, no?
If that’s not what you meant by “we put those people in power” and “we establish a friendly regime”, you need to rephrase that, then. I agree if Israel just agrees that they’ll support whoever ends up being the adults in the room after an internal Gazan process, but that’s not how your post read.
That would be a very good solution. I agree that it should be achievable. So what if there are powers that will work against it - they can be overcome. It’s happened in other places just as divided as Israel.
Two members of Congress, Cory Booker and Dan Goldman were/are in Israel. They are both safe, thankfully. I have no idea if or how things would be different if either of them were killed or held hostage.
Are you seriously asking if the people holding hostages, murdering unarmed festivalgoers, and worse, are the bad guys? Not enough skulls on their caps or something?
No.
Some of it is, but a lot of it is religious extremism.
This is all rooted in a very long-term and very complicated situation. The full discussion probably belongs elsewhere but here’s a quick guide:
Palestine isn’t really a defined country at the moment. If it were to exist, it would likely encompass Gaza, the West Bank (or portions thereof), and more controversially, parts of Jerusalem.
The Fatah (outgrowth of the old PLO) is generally recognized as being in charge of the West Bank and was, at one point, in charge of Gaza.
Hamas (an outgrowth of the Egyptian Islamic Brotherhood) has de-facto control of Gaza since 2007. It was at one point the government of both Gaza and the West Bank.
Absolutely, which makes the situation very delicate. Israel cannot be seen to support the people they want to work with at all, because that would ruin their credibility among the Palestinians. But not helping them could get them dangling from balconies again.
That, and Israel needs to do what it can to ensure that no one murders those adults as soon as Israel leaves.
Absolutely. Like I said in my other post, the fact that there are powers cough Iran cough that are working hard to set this situation up is a good sign, because it means this isn’t some eternal natural state of things - it’s a situation created by people that can be diffused by people as well (and may diffuse on its own over time if we just stop the people stoking the fire).