I grew up in Ohio and the Confederate battle flag was fairly popular among certain sectors of the white population. My guess is that they started using this imagery during the Civil Rights era. They might claim innocence now, but I’m pretty sure they knew what they were doing at the time.
Most probably there will never be slavery again in the US (at least blacks will not be slaves), and the fact that slavery has not occurred in a hundred and fifty years, I am wondering why so many people are now so ultra hypersensitive about the issue? It’s not like there is legislation to allow slavery again. Do you think racism is going away? It ain’t. Do you think it is just whites who are the racists? It ain’t. Do you think removing everything Confederate is going to change history? It ain’t. Do you think it is going to change anyone’s mind? It ain’t.
Even asking the question about what is “offensive” elicited sarcastic responses.
I guess it gives the social justice warriors something to rally around.
And with the 20 stars it’s directly allusive to Mississippi’s original time of statehood.
As Fretful Porpentine pointed out, the problem with referenda is that such ballots attract an older/whiter demographic of voter AND also those who are motivated because it’s their ox being gored – and that the option to not change gets votes much more easily. Those looking for a change may not be enthusiastic with the proposed replacement. As we saw earlier in the century, it took Georgia years to settle on a replacement for the supremacist flag (adopted 1956) that would be merely humdrum and not outright horrible, and *still *is confederacy-based.
The fascinating thing is that even simply reverting to Georgia’s pre-1956 flag would have looked at least slightly different from the Stars and Bars.
Essentially the Mississippi and Georgia flags remain the ones that overtly display either the Battle Flag or the Stars and Bars. Other former confederate states use flags indistinct from the usual US practice, and others incorporate visual elements influenced by the battle flag but not the actual familiar pattern.
No visible “confederate battle flag” pattern:
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Lousiana - Blue bedsheet, state seal symbol in the middle. Flag dates to Civil War but seal iconography antedates it.
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Virginia - Blue bedsheet, state seal symbol in the middle, with bare tit. Again based on a seal that antedates the Civil War.
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Texas - Lone star republic flag; antedates the confederacy.
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North Carolina - Yes, it looks like Texas upside down. This is reversed colors of the Civil-War-Era flag but its inscriptions are allusive to the Revolution, not the Civil War.
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South Carolina - Based upon a flag dating to the Revolution (Moultrie Flag), current variation *was *adopted after seccession, but South Carolina then had the self-command to not change it back and forth during different times using disingenuous justifications; instead they went for the more direct approach of just flying the Confederate Battle Flag itself on state property, until too recently. A good looking banner.
“Battle flag” - influenced visual elements:
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Alabama - plain red saltire on plain white field. Weren’t even trying. However the Alabama flag of seccession was one of those dreadful “blue bedsheet” patterns, and it is left as an exercise to the reader if we’d want them to make that switch.
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Florida - it’s the Alabama flag defaced with the Florida seal. During the Civil War Florida used a flag similar to pre-1956 Georgia, and between the Civil War and 1900 used a plain seal on a white background, then said “too plain” but did not attempt creativity. So it has always suffered from indistinctiveness.
The claim for this flag is that is allusive to the Spanish-colonial Cross of Burgundy flag, from the Spanish settlement of East and West Florida. In which case I’d say: then make it an actual Cross of Burgundy, and for good measure, have it be in the old Spanish colours. I mean if you’re going to make up an explanation, go where it takes you.
3) Arkansas - beside the vexillological violation of actually including the place’s name in big bold letters, this uses the pattern of red field and white-starred blue stripes with white fimbriation and rearranges it. The stripes are not laid out as a saltire but as a lozenge, sure, but once you look closely…
- Tennessee - Again, mostly red field, stars on a smaller blue element, white fimbriation. BUT much superior design execution: no four-armed stripe design elements, for instance. This is an effective, distinctive good looking flag.
Yikes.
WTF is wrong with y’all? That’s offensive. And it’s your flag?
Bolding mine.
The links provide evidence for the bolded statement, verdad?
Actually, this bit of dodging is more than a bit disingenuous. You have focused on the issue of slavery, dancing around and avoiding the other issues related to it. As I have already noted, the battle flag was added to several state flags at times when those states were actively looking to impose Jim Crow laws or oppose Civil Rights. The current wielders of that banner frequently join actively with proponents of Nazi hatred and racism (as they did last week in Charlottesville).
Your silly attempts at an argument do not even make sense. I do not remember anyone claiming that racism was going to go away. Certainly, racism is not the sole provenance of white people. However, placing a flag that was created to support slavery onto a state flag at a time when the state was working to deprive citizens of their rights, thus giving the support of the state to such racist ideals should make any rational person upset.
Of course the responses were sarcastic. The question was posed as if by a person who was utterly unaware of history. However, one would have had to live in a foreign country with no news from the U.S. for over twenty years to be ignorant of the reasons for the opposition to placing that banner on a state flag. It makes one appear to be simply JAQing off and not participating in the discussion in good faith.
My response was not sarcastic. I’m sure there are people who see absolutely nothing wrong with the flag, treatment of Blacks, or anything else that has gone on in the deep South over the last 152 years.
For many other people white, black, red, yellow and brown, there is a deep problem with all of the aforementioned things. While the flag is offensive, it isn’t as bad as it could be. Mississippi could change the canton to a burning cross or a noose. I’m sure that no one would mind those images from history.
That’s Mississippi’s business.
Interesting thing though is you get to be see a Confederate flag at places like Mt. Rushmore where state flags are displayed. I don’t see any riots, clashes, arson, or other civil disturbances inspired by that flag when I’m visiting those parks. Maybe it’s not the flag or statues and maybe it’s people that cause problems?
No. It doesn’t. It provides evidence that they rank poorly on education compared to the rest of the states. It doesn’t provide evidence that the majority of the citizens of those state want to replace the US flag.
You just noticed now?
More seriously: Y’know this is how come it still is around – state flags are not in the radar of a large majority of Americans. I remember an item of fake news fauxrage that Obama had created an “O” version of the US flag… and what it was was a picture of the then man in front of an ***Ohio ***flag
Which is an example of contextualization as has been mentioned in other threads about such symbols. I remember a thread years ago where people were puzzled at the apparent sight of a CBF in the background of a scene in The Breakfast Club, when all it means is that yes, at a school you will show things that are part of history (it was actually a flag of Georgia as of that time).
OTOH if Mississippi wants to glorify the CBF as a point of historic pride in the official ensign of the state, that does reflect on the decision-makers’ way of thinking and the observer is at liberty to interpret that gesture and approve or condemn.
Six Flags in Texas is taking down the 5 non-United States flags from their property after what happened in Charlottesville this past weekend.
Oh please. If people weren’t making a big deal out of being oh so outraged at this stuff there’d be no problem. You aren’t going to change what you want changed by taking down a piece of cloth. You are just going to aggravate political division. Which I am guessing is the real game plan.
While we are at the business of removing political and historical symbols we disagree with why don’t we bulldoze religious buildings that are centers of intolerance? Religion seems to get a huge pass even when it inspires things like the attack in Spain.
If we quit taking the steps to move forward, we will never get there. These symbols may not bother you or even a majority of people. They are highly offensive to the people they do bother. I guess since most of us didn’t have an ancestor raped daily or another work in a field 16 hours a day 7 days a week for 50 years it can be difficult to understand why it might “outrage” someone.
Right, so don’t demand any change to racist policies or symbols - that will stir division. Much better to just accept the racism (and normalization thereof by government symbols, media representation, etc) and raise no noise about it. Racism’ll just go away if you don’t raise any ruckus - just like it did from 1860 to 1940.
Getting rid of the government-endorsed symbols at least stops actively sending the message that the government and people find that racism, slavery, entire Confederacy acceptable or (even worse) admirable.
USC has any many Trojans in its history? How about schools with Devil as a mascot?
Let’s be like the Middle East and never let stuff go.
You go back in history and I’m sure all of us have ancestors who were subject to injustice. I wonder what flags the folks in Africa that participated in the slave trade flew. That’s actually pretty sad. Being captured and sold by cousins.
Completely irrelevant to the topic.
Why should the decendants of those enslaved have to let it go. What comfort do you get out of keeping statues, monuments, and flags that symbolize racism? Obviously you do not care about others so it will be difficult for you to understand how they feel about this.
What do confederate symbols mean to you, octopus, in that you seem to care if they are removed?
If you want people to ‘let stuff go’, take down the monuments to kidnapping, raping, torturing, and murdering them. Putting up monuments to say ‘we like kidnapping, raping, and torturing your kind, and we can get away with it so stop whining or we’ll hurt you’ is pretty much the direct opposite of ‘let stuff go’. Oh, and if you’re going to say I’m exaggerating, explain the speeches given about these monuments like
Mississippi could have really used you back in 1894 so you could have complained about the state flag being changed for obviously racist reasons. You could have laid out how we’ve had the magnolia flag for decades and why do we need to change it now? Similarly, you could have protested the addition of Confederate monuments to our beautiful public places. Downtown Charlottesville has been so lovely without this monument, why do we need to add one now? It will screw up traffic and is pretty racist, let’s face it.
That is, flags change, monuments are erected and taken down. Things change, it’s OK, we’ll all get through it.