That flag bears a wicked symbol. The Star of David causes me, as a Christian, great pain and anguish. It is a symbol of those who killed Christ. The Romans might have carried out the execution, but it was his own kin, the Jews, who brought him before Pilate on charges of insurrection.
I cannot bear to look at it. I call upon Christians the world over to boycott Israel until that flag comes down. Isn’t it enough that they killed my saviour? Why must they now rub it in my face?
[/Hypothetical]
I heard this, or something very much like this, yesterday on my way home from work. A duet-hosted radio talk show from Charlotte’s mega-megawatt WBT 1110, was positively buzzed over this. A declaration similar to the hypothetical was made by one of the hosts, and was a complete surprise to the other host (a Jew), who was dumbfounded by this sudden torpedo.
The hypothecist was making an obvious analogy to the Confederate flag flying over the capitol building in Columbia, SC, less than a hundred miles away.
Do you buy his analogy? One caller argued that Israel is a soverign state, but the hypothecist answered that so is South Carolina, at least if the tenth ammendment means anything.
I say that it is at least a pretty good stab at making a point, the point being that there can be many different interpretations of symbols. A symbol might be holy to one man and despicable to another.
This kind of makes me wonder, what do native Americans see every time they look at the cross? I’m sure they see a symbol of evil that lead to many deaths, the break up of families and the end to centuries of rituals and traditions. What would the anti-semite say if he was asked to remove all crosses?
Not a bad analogy, but lacking a good bit. Israel is a Jewish state. I’m not that up on the specifics, but the whole idea is founded in religion, isn’t it? S.C. and Georgia decided to fly/incorporate the Confederate flag to intentionally slap a group of citizens in the face, a protest to civil rights, specifically integration.
If Israel had been a partially Jewish, partially Christian state, and the Jewish majority had decided to change the flag as a protest to equal rights for Christians the argument would make more sense. The hypothetical Christian is not a citizen of Israel, so it is not the same.
That said, I think there are far worse social problems that are in need of the time and efforts of the people protesting a piece of fabric. The thing stands for what the state is now. Make the state what you want it to be and the flag will reflect this. Example: In Albany, GA there is an MLK street. A few years back the idea was put forth that the street was in a low income, bad area of town, and was a disgrace to the name, so a different street, in a nicer area, should become MLK, and the old MLK should be renamed. Huh? How about working to make the existing MLK a better place, instead of spending time and money fighting for a superficial change.
symbol – *n.***1.**something used or regarded as standing for or representing something else; a material object representing something immaterial; an emblem, token, or sign.
A symbol is used to represent things for its creators. An idea is mostly represented by a symbol. The American flag is a powerful symbol of freedom to most. But there are those who see the American flag as a sysmbol of oppresion.
The Confederat flag is a symbol of freedom from a dominating central government to some, to others it represents their ancestors slavery.
Every symbol has two sides to it. If you do not want to offend someone at all, remove all symbols from human society.
If the people in Israel mostly thought their flag was offensive and took a vote that it should come down, then it should come down. Christians in the U.S. wouldn’t & shouldn’t have any say in the matter.
I think the people of South Carolina should have a referendum on the issue. In polls (I know, not known for accuracy), the majority of South Carolinians want it down. That’s completely different from Congress saying it should come down because it is offensive to people in Kansas. If it’s on a building that represents the people of SC and the people of SC don’t want it flying over their building, it shouldn’t fly.
On the radio yesterday, they were discussing the issue (I live in SC) and a man said that his buddies were planning on taking their guns down to the capital if the flag came down. Their planning on shooting the place up. Great. An opportunity for them to drag all their re-enactment regalia out for something that involves real bullets. It’s their dream come true—to refight the Civil War. Everyone’s getting just a bit carried away with the whole issue.
Funny thing is, those South Carolina rednecks think they’re people too.
I don’t think you’ve seen nuttin’ yet. Do you have any idea what mayhem a convoy of these guys, armed to the teeth with bellies full of beer, can unleash?
Sorry, let me rephrase:
If the majority of the people in SC want it to come down, it should come down. (let’s vote!!)
I actually thought I would get that comment after I hit the reply button…you’re right.
You’re also right about the possibilities of what could happen…people have died over more stupid things.
Good points, but the final line is slightly off target. On the one hand, the government of Israel was founded as a Jewish one, and indeed it can be called “a Jewish state”. But there are Christians who are citizens of Israel. And I can’t blame them if any of them feel as described in the OP.
The big difference (as it relates to this thread) between Israel and SC is that Israel admits to being pro-Jewish, and Jews do have certain privileges in Israel not given to Christians, Moslems, and other non-Jews. Therefore, there is no internal inconsistency with having a flag which offends some citizens. NOTE: I am not saying this is nice, I’m only saying it’s not illogical.
In contrast, the government of SC does not claim to be aligned with any particular segment of its population. Therefore, I do see logical problems with honoring a flag which offends some citizens, and that also applies to comments some made here about symbols which are offensive to Native Americans.
1st reaction: Sheesh, it’s called a symbol because its impact is - well, symbolic. Get over it, get a life.
But it’s not as simple as that. When using a symbol, you are conveying a message to whoever’s watching, and you are leaving the interpretation of said symbol up to them. If you decide to use a controversial symbol, you should at least take that into consideration - it’s called, I believe, tact.
An extreme example: Let’s say someone didn’t study history, but came across a picture of the old Japanese naval flag and thought it was a really nice symbol for the sunrise. Let’s say said someone had it embroidered on the sail of his yacht, because he considered it pretty. Would it be OK to sail into Pearl Harbor with these sails aloft ? I hope you’ll agree with me that it wouldn’t. The assh.le could have the purest of motives, but it wouldn’t really count, because his actions are deeply insulting anyway.
And while a private citizen might be excused for ignorance and tactlessness, a government institution shouldn’t be.
Norman.
Worrying is the thinking man’s form of meditation.
Hang on here. The massive difference in the analogy is the distortion. The charge that the “Jews killed Jesus” is right up there with the charge that “blacks are inferior.” These are the rantings of the racists who then proceed to use such froth to kill, imprison, or enslave their victims.
Far better than using the Israeli flag for your analogy would be using the cross as a symbol of the country. Under the sign of the cross, millions of Jews, native Americans, aborigines, Moslems, and others were murdered and persecuted. Talk about a hateful sign! …and notice that it is the symbol on the flags of countries like Switzerland, most of the Scandinavian countries, etc.
The Confederate flag being tied to slavery is an historical reality. The Confederate flag symbolizes a would-be nation that fought for the the “principles” that blacks are inferior and that slavery is OK.
The Israeli flag being tied to the death of Jesus is not historical reality.
You want to argue in favour of the Confederate flag, fine, but please! limit the arguments to realistic analogies, not absurd ones.
The argument that it’s offensive to some people won’t work. Everything’s offensive to someone. When something is offensive to the MAJORITY of the people, though, it should be removed. Let’s take a vote among the people of SC and find out. Our representatives are worse than useless…they’re all caught in the “let’s not offend ANYONE” trap and so they don’t make a decision.
Someone wrote into the paper that only people who were born in SC and have sufficient generations here should be allowed to vote! WTF! I pay my taxes and contribute to my community and I LIVE HERE!!!
If every symbol that ever had a negative association attached to it were we would have no symbols.
I would like all Christians to boycott the letter “A” “A” as we all know stands for adultery which is a sin. Therefor it should be stricken from the alphabets of all righteous men and women. Failure to do is clearly an endorsement of adultery.
Let’s get real. The Confederate flag is a symbol of southern pride. Let’s leave it at that. General Lee is highly regarded because he was an excellent leader, not because he “fought for slavery.” Usually there is more than one association to a symbol. The endorsement of one aspect does not imply a sweeping endorsement of all aspects by extension.
The poor Swastika has been hopelessly villified to its assocaiton with Nazis.
These people that get hung up on the negative associations attached to symbols need to get a life and fight about something that means something.
Let’s get real. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of slavery and racism. Let’s leave it at that. Usually there is more than one assciation to a symbol. The villification of one aspect does not imply a sweeping villification of all aspects by extension.
Those people who get hung up on the positive aspects attached to symbols need to get a life and fight about something that means something.
Perhaps we’re looking at this the wrong way. We agree that you can’t find a symbol that’s offensive to no one, so how 'bout we find a symbol that’s offensive to everyone? Problem solved. The Nazi/Black Panther/Christian/Jewish/Nation of Islam/Atheist/Creationist/Evolutionist flag is born. (Sorry if I missed anybody, feel free to add your offensive image at any time.)
Seriously, though, what’s the difference with stars and bars and a flag that shows a white man whipping a black slave? Both are historical. Both represent the same thing to many people. I guess if SC wants to continue to project that image of itself, it’s free to do so, but IMHO it seems to be in remarkably bad taste to emphasize that part of your history.
In regards to the whole Israel/Switzerland flag thing, well, now you’re talking religious vs. political symbology. We might as well throw in the Islamic countries with the crescent and star. Accepting those flags is likely considered religious tolerance for most people, while the stars and bars often represents racial division more than anything else.
Do we deny history? Of course not. Instead we should learn from it and realize that division hinders our society, and will continue to do so. Especially when something so trivial divides people so harshly.
Yes the reversal, and it’s been around in a number of incarnations. Cecil Wrote a column on it. It’s also similar to the Basque cross, by the way.
C3:
I assume that the misquote is meant to construe you disagree. You’re entitled.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the South, and their version of history differs somewhat from the Northerners.
The Confederates did not consider the civil war as a war for slavery. It was a war for the right to self-rule. It was a war for economic freedom, and representative government (sound familiar.) The Southern states did not appreciate being dictated to on a variety of issues by the primarily Northern Congress, and Northern President.
Lest you forgot, there had been slavery in the North under the American flag as well up until shortly before the civil war. Should we dispense with the American flag as well?
Slavery was in decline in the South and almost surely would have died out due to economic and technological reasons without the Civil War. One might even argue that Northern policy during the reconstruction set back the equality of blacks for generations.
“Free the Slaves” may have been the Battle cry of the North.
That’s not what the Southerners were fighting for. To imply that that’s the case is simply ignorant.
Several prominent Southerners who were active in the Civil War were decidedly not in favor of Slavery, yet fought because of the other issues involved.
If the Confederate flag symbolizes only slavery and evil in your mind or that of others it’s because that’s the way YOU and THEY have characterized it.
I see no reason why ANYBODY would need to cater to such arbitrary ignorance.
If you do’t want to hang it in your house that’s fine with me, but I see no right to dictate what others should do.
I think that at least one of your points is pretty good. Slavery existed a lot longer under the Stars and Stripes than it did under the Stars and Bars.
Another great irony is that, as Lee was signing the surrender articles, the only slave in Virginia that day belonged to Grant’s wife! The EP and all.
Well, Scylla, it’s one thing to fly the Confederate flag in your home or put a sticker of the flag on your truck. It’s quite another thing to fly it over the State House, as a supposed symbol of the people of the state. It is not an appropriate symbol for the state if a sizeable chunk of the population of that state finds the flag offensive (and understandably so).
Look, I am a Southerner born and bred. Two great-grandfathers fought for the Confederacy, one died at Sharpsburg. I do have my credentials here. I understand that you do not intend the flag to be an offensive symbol. I personally feel the same way. I like the flag, and regret that it has become associated with redneck, racist yahoos. My ancestors fought, in their view, not to preserve slavery (they didn’t own slaves) but to defend their homeland.
Still, rightly or wrongly, to a large segment of the citizenry, the flag represents slavery and oppression. (Surely you must understand that.) As such, the flag cannot be said to be an appropriate symbol for the state. How can it be a symbol of the citizens of South Carolina when such a large segment of those citizens is offended by the sight of it?
Look, fly it at your home, put in on your bumper, make a suit of clothes out of it, if you like, but just don’t fly it over government buildings!
“Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard).