Let’s put it bluntly. The Confederate Flag is the symbol of a group that tried to dissolve the United States of America. The Southern State started the war at Fort Sumter because they didn’t like the results of a legitimate election.
They would have split this country into half, all to keep a group of men, women and children in chains. No constitutional or state’s rights arguments please - the core of the conflict was slavery. All other issues were peripheral.
If say, in the year 2001, California breaks away from the United States because it wants to allow Californians to have slaves, do we let it go? Or do good men have to die, as they did at Gettysburg, Antietam and so many other battlegrounds to preserve the republic?
I’m sure that any Union soldier, not to mention Abraham Lincoln, would have quite strong feelings about the Confederate Flag flying over any government building. Why honor a force that was against American Unity? That was against the rule of law? That would void a national election, merely because they didn’t agree with the results?
If someone wants to fly the flag over their house or paint it on the roof of their Dodge Charge, fine - freedom of speech is precious, even if you don’t agree with what is being said. However, to confer any kind of legitimacy upon the confederate flag by flying it over the seat of government is reprehensible.
Scylla: My point was not that the Civil War was only concerned with slavery or even that slavery was the most important aspect of the war. My point was that your argument could be used by both sides by just changing a couple words. Your point that the “other side” should just stop whining about the flag being on top of the statehouse because they don’t agree with your estimate of its symbolic worth is not a valid argument. That’s like you saying ice cream is yummy, me disagreeing, and you saying, “Just shut up. That’s the way it is because that’s how I view it.”
Let me repeat: I think there should be a referendum in SC. If the people who want the flag up win, we’ll keep the flag up. If not, it comes down. Fair enough? Regardless, I’m with spoke- that you can paint your house and all of your belongings with the Stars & Bars. Don’t care. Means nothing to me. As an official symbol flying on top of the statehouse, though, I think the flag is inappropriate. I vote take it down.
I would not agree that the majority are against the Confederate Flag. I would think the majority don’t particularly care.
I would say that a partiularly vocal group has gained the attention of the media about how the stupid flag is trampling rights and oppressing people, and proves that state government is run by right-wing dinosaurs with the agenda of glorifying slavery.
Since the Vietnam war was wrong accodrding to current PC thought, shouldn’t we destroy all the memorials and villify those who fought there?
Symbolically I should think the confederate flag serves as a memorial, rather than an endorsement of one factor of a terrible and complicated conflict. As such it is absolutely appropriate.
At Gettysburg there is only one tiny memorial to the confederate dead. It’s well off the beaten path.
I say don’t give an inch to these self-righteous simpletons with their offended sensibilities, and simplistic doctrine.
They dishonor those who gave their lives for what they believe in.
The Confederate flag is a part of our heritage, and as such simply can’t be edited out.
I see no reason to cater to this stupidity, It’s but a single step from this kind of stuff to The Thought Police.
Enough with the Confederate flag already. Yes, slavery was/is bad, but that is not what the OP is about. The OP(IMHO) is asking if something symbolic should removed because some people dislike what it stands for. It is not asking for opinions on various symbols.
Here is some news, symbols and rituals used by a group are supposed to make outsiders uncomfortable. A symbol of strength to one group is a symbol of opression to another.
If I was discussing Lucy Lawless but I wrote Lucy Topless, would that be a Freudian typo?
I don’t care about the Confederate flag one or another, but creating a cause celebre over this stuff is just stupid.
I wonder what political group is at the center of this controversy? There surely is one.
This movement to villify the confederate flag is gross oversimplification and smacks of Orwellian newsspeak.
Matt4film:
Yes you are right. Thanks to your astonishing proof I now see that that all Southerners were evil in 1865.
Thank God that Luke, Chewie and their buddies were able to right wrong, blow up the Confederate Deathstar, and overthrow the evil empire. Otherwise we’d all be Evil and have slaves. Gosh, you’ve made it so simple.
I’ll second that - enough with flag controversy already!
Nations in Asia Minor and North Africa fly Muslim symbols, Scandanavian nations fly Christian symbols, Israel flys a Jewish one, etc. It’s diversity and heritage - nothing inherently wrong with that. Even if all flags to resembled Libya’s, I guarantee there would be those who would have a problem with why a nation picked their particular color. Besides, we’d run out of colors pretty quickly and no one would want to be Mr. Pink.
Flags shouldn’t come under attack until crimes are being committed by those marching under them. If a group of fanatics start marching under a flag with a teapot screaming that all 6’2" white drummers MUST DIE and stoning me everytime I leave my house, I’ll be all for censoring them and their damn teapot flag.
If they’re just going to camp out on the sidewalk and picket me and my evil ways, let 'em keep their flag - I’ll just counter-hate them by burning all of my teapots in my front yard.
Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.
I’d think it’s going to have to depend on the particular symbol in question and whether or not the reason is a legitimate one. Would Germany use the swastika flag again just because some people love the idea of a powerful Germany? Or because Manstein was a great general?
Why don’t we ask Lib what his intent was? Were you looking to discuss symbolism in general or the Confederate flag in particular?
Ah, yes. The “outsiders” of people residing in same states who think the Confederate flag is not representative of them. Why, those outsiders DESERVE to be alienated.
I have an idea… wasn’t part of Reconstruction a requirement that states retaining institutions of the Confederacy were not allowed representation in Congress until those institutions were eliminated? Perhaps Congress could refuse to sit representatives until the Stars and Bars are removed from state flags…
I think they also wore white when they commited these acts. We might as well stop people in the statehouse from wearing that color since it so clearly symbolizes oppresion. If you wear white your a racist.
Oh, and they rode horses too. So we should kill the horses.
Burning crosses was bad. Yes, clearly we need to put an end to outside fires. That means Barbecues are oppresive, so we’ll have to think of something else to do with all the horsemeat we’re going to have.
Settle down there, Scylla. Once more, I’m simply illustrating that the argument made by Sake could be refuted. He basically said that a flag could only be villified if a crime had been committed by a group that used it as a symbol. The Confederate flag
would be an example of that (and so would pretty much every flag I can think of, save the Girl Scout flag, I think).
I don’t think that should be the basis for deciding whether the flag should come down. In fact, I don’t think there really needs to be one reason. I think it should be something that the people in SC should vote on (am I repeating myself? I have this odd sense of deja vu). To me, this is not an issue that anyone is going to come up with a reasonable argument about on either side (or rather, both sides have reasonable arguments). The same goes for the OP. Since it is such an EMOTIONAL issue, reason and logic aren’t going to have much effect. Take a vote. Majority wins, no matter what their reasons are for voting yay or nay.
And another thing, Scylla…
Yeah, I would argue that we shouldn’t have a statue of a horseman dressed all in white, with a hood, carrying a burning a cross SITTING ON TOP OF THE SC STATEHOUSE.
I didn’t say the flag should be illegal. I merely said it should be on top of a building that is supposed to represent everyone in the state of South Carolina.
You missed my point by a mile. I was refering to the OP which describes the Israeli flag. Israel is an independant Nation-State. Their situation is much different than say South Carolina.
If outsiders were not “frightened” by jingoistic behaviour and flag waving, Americans would not have freaked out over May Day parades in Moscow.
Now if you want to talk about the Confederate flag, fine. I see it as a symbol of southern pride. Maybe 35 or more years ago there was an dark meaning to it, and no doubt that some still use it in an inappropriate manner. Still, that is not enough to convince me that it must be removed to salve the conscience of people who feel that they must atone for the sins of every non-PC idiot that ever lived before them.
To me, this whole thing boils down to a single false premise.
People are confusing the evil that people do with symbols.
The “handguns are evil,” “the Confederate Flag is evil because it stands for racism”
arguments are simply wrong.
Don’t fight the symbol fight the problem. The villification of symbols implies that the responsibility lies with the symbols and not with the acts associated with them.
C3, I see what you mean, but that’s not quite what I’m saying. Yes the KKK committed acts of violence under the confederate flag, the swastika, the Stars & Bars, etc. So what you do is punish their crimes then and there and remove their robes and symbols. An individual not associated with those crimes must still be allowed to wear robes and use those symbols - they may mean something completely different to them. The governor of SC does not have the same interpretation of the Stars & Bars as David Duke. Acting like he does is oppresive thought policing.
Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.
Plato’s caves:
Prisoners are hanging in a cave, facing the walls. They can’t turn their heads or look in any direction but straight ahead.
Behind the prisoners, their wardens tend a fire and due prison maintenance stuff.
All the prisoners see is the shadow of their wardens moving across the wall. They hear some sounds of course, and they are able to associate the movements of these shadows with events like feeding or beatings.
Here’s the kicker.
After a time Plato hypothesizes, when these prisoners have gone somewhat crazy, they might get things mixed up.
They would assume that it was the shadows on the wall that were directing the warden’s actions, that were causing the beatings, the feedings, etcetera. They might even begin to worship the shadows.
Such is the blaming of flags for racism, guns for murder, beer for drunk drivers, or ((insert your cause celebre here)), or ((grind axe here))
I see what you mean, too, Sake, but in SC, at least, the issue isn’t whether or not to ban the flag from ever being displayed or make it illegal, etc. The question is whether or not it should be on top of the statehouse. The KKK can fly the ConFlag whenever they want. Likewise, my next door neighbor can have his flying all over his lawn (well, not really…our homeowner’s association has a thing against ANY flag or even non-beige paint, for that matter).
As far as the governor of SC having a say in this, he’s a representative of the people of the state, therefore, his personal opinion or reasons really don’t matter. He should make his decisions based on what his constituents want, which is, in my opinion, really what needs to be figured out (and not by some lame newspaper poll).
