It IS hate, not heritage. symbology of the "confederate" flag, chapter whatever

In this thread, mks57 seems to take issue with my statement that one of the battle flags of the Confederacy, you know, the one on top of the General Lee, earlier used to great success by the KKK, might be a useful sign for identifying racist, ignorant assholes.

I don’t understand how anyone can have a problem with that. I mean, you don’t have to be like the Germans, apologizing all over themselves, but fuck, show a little comprehension of outward appearances. Just because your grandpappy’s uncle died at first Manassas for a cause he believed in doesn’t mean he was in the right. The South was wrong on so many fronts, and thinking that flying that flag doesn’t mark you as a racist, ignorant asshole (to a whole lot of people, and for very good reaons) is just the first reason to start learning how to say “sorry.”

Minor observation-many pictures of the KKK show them carrying the regular stars and stripes-not the stars and bars.

Relevant wiki page. Not sure what you mean, as the “Stars and Bars” refers to the official CSA flag, not the “Southern Cross” of DoH and racist asshole fame. If you are going to nitpick, at least be clear about it.

If you mean that the KKK tried to appropriate the US flag, well, it doesn’t really stick. KKK is way down the list of things associated with that flag.

Wow. So a symbol of the navy represents ‘supporting slavery’ to you?

Just wow.

You are correct-I misspoke regarding the Stars and Bars-the flag to which I referred was the Confederate Battle Flag.

For the record-a person doesn’t magically become an asshole by association with a flag, a song, or any other symbol. You’re to be pitied, if you believe otherwise.

I need to clarify a bit. On this board there is often bad talk aimed at the Christians (for example). I started a thread myself, not aimed at Christians in general but at the Voice of Christian Youth America. Autolycus in post #68 reminded us that “‘not all Christians are like this’”. I’m going to extrapolate this concept and say that all of us who are proud of our “South” are not racist or “hateful”.

I motion that in this thread all references to the Confederate or rebel flag be assumed to mean the familiar one as seen on DoH’s General Lee unless specified as “the official”/“the actual”/“the real” etc. Confederate flag (i.e. the one that flew over the capitol in Richmond). As I’ve mentioned many times the historical inaccuracy of the Confederate flag as popularly identified is a pet peeve, but it’ll avoid confusion in this thread.

That said-

I stated in the other thread and I’ve said many times before that I don’t think a person (particularly a black person or a northerner) has to be particularly thin skinned to be offended by the rebel flag. I’m white, a 7th generation Alabamian and 12th generation southerner, a direct descendant of several Confederate soldiers (one of whom died in service), I am not ashamed or embarrassed by being a southerner, and something of a Civil War buff, and I find the rebel flag to be disrespectful other than for relevant historic sites (when I’d prefer the official flag or the appropriate regimental flags be flown).

That said though, I also think that hate is too strong a word for those who fly the flag, for not all who fly it do so for intrinsically racist reasons. Many do it for romanticized and simplistic notions of regional patriotism, anti-government, southern pride, a rebellious streak, etc., and not because they’re pro-slavery or white supremacist or want to burn down small towns in Vermont or sack parts of Kansas (though let’s face it- is there anybody here who hasn’t at some point wanted to sack a small town in Kansas when they’re just lying there practically begging for it?). There are cafeteria Confederates just as you have cafeteria Christians or cafeteria New Agers: they pick and choose the parts of the rebel causes (as they define it) that they wish to honor with that flag. (Of course some also choose it for flat out racist reasons as well.)

In my opinion, the Confederacy as symbolized by that flag is too inextricably linked to “The Dark Side” of the war of rebellion (white supremacy, hotheadedness, the arrogance of rushing off to a war completely unprepared [glad we got that out of our system], xenophobia, classism, etc.) to represent ONLY the nobler aims and qualities of the Confederacy (what those were and the extent to which they existed being a matter of debate) and it is therefore reasonable to deem the flag as offensive to a great number of people who are not being hypersensitive. However, the operative phrase in that run-on sentence was comprised of the first three words- “in my opinion”- and others disagree and in general the flag means what it means to the flier.

Now I think you should be able to hang it inside your home, or fly a football field sized one if you live outside of city ordinances, or display it in Confederate cemeteries or at private gatherings or even tattoo it on your forehead if you particularly desire to do so. The bone in the throat expressed in the other thread isn’t the person’s beliefs or intent but strictly the right of others to not have see it from their front lawns or living room windows- and as I expressed in the other thread I would respect the rights of my neighbors not wanting to see a big rainbow flag on my own lawn. (If I happened to have a small one on my car [which I don’t, but if] that’s a different matter- it doesn’t command your attention, but it’s hard to ignore a a huge flag that’s higher than the rooftops and trees and visible from several houses away.

In an eerily similar way, some folks find skin color to be a “useful sign” for identifying criminals.

Flag on the General Lee = Color of a car’s skin
Painting a whole group with a negative brush = content of one’s character

You should never judge people based on your assumptions about the category into which you place them. It would be a better world if people were only judged by what they do, and if people make blanket assumptions about groups of people, that behavior is what makes them an “ignorant asshole.”

I despise prejudice/bigotry, too, so I admire your motivation, but this is a topic which gives a lot of examples of “you become that which you hate.”

It’s too bad that there isn’t a universal way to visually identify when a person is a bigot, or has any other negative characteristic. That is the only way that we could really tell the good ones from the bad ones. As it is, we have to invest a little time and observation into each individual before we can hate them, and that takes effort.
ETA: I own a General Lee and I live in Wisconsin. I’ve never had a bad experience with it. I’ve only ever gotten positive responses from black folks and a few white people have wondered if I ever got any hateful reactions from black people, but I honestly never have.

Eerily similar? Were you born with a rebel flag birthmark?

Are you talking about th Car or the Flag? :confused:
You mean to say some people will judge you by the Car you’re driving?
I wish I HAD a General Lee car :frowning:

There’s one in a wealthy neighborhood about 2 or 3 miles from where I live, one of the many used in the series and now the property of a private collector. I don’t get the least bit offended by it because the kitsch/nostalgia factor totally trumps the flag, and it’s impossible not to :stuck_out_tongue: when you hear the Dixie horn blow.

I do not understand this metaphor you’re trying to make. People choose to display this flag, knowing that it offends some people. You can choose not to put the flag in people’s faces; you cannot choose the color of your skin.

What they’re doing, according to the OP, is displaying a flag that is widely interpreted by people as symbolic of the endorsement of a racist regime. I think that qualifies as a behavior. I can totally understand forming a judgement about a person based on that behavior. Or at least being leery of the person pending further information.

I have had a different experience with that particular flag. I had an incident in my classroom where a kid drew that flag on his binder. Several black students got upset when they saw it and it became a tense situation. We’re talking about 7th graders here-- they knew what it meant and it made them angry.

The boy with the picture did NOT know what it meant. He thought it was just the DoH car flag and had no idea of its larger associations. When I explained to him why the other kids were upset, he voluntarily removed it and seemed apologetic about it. Consequently, I would not say that the boy was a racist asshole; he was, however, ignorant. I’m not sure how much I’d believe an adult who said he thought it was just the decoration on the Duke boys’ car with no larger meaning. I’m also not so sure I’d assume that no black people were ever offended by your car. Those who were may well have chosen not to speak with you at all. Have you considered that possibility?

Feel free to display the flag as you see fit. It’s a free country in that way. However, I hope you are not kidding yourself that everyone who sees it thinks it’s great and none of them are thinking ill of you. I can’t say I wouldn’t have at least a :dubious: reaction.

There is a General Lee car just a few blocks from me. I didn’t realize there were a lot of them out there, I always assumed the one here was just a custom made novelty car.

I went to a high school where black guys hung out with rebel-flag-wearing white guys in lifted trucks. Nobody ever gave much of a shit about it.

Yes, I could re-paint my 1969 Dodge Charger in order to accomodate bigoted reactions. The reason I don’t is because I believe that bigotry is something to be fought, not something for which accomodations should be made. If a black man could change his skin color, and start “acting white,” should he? Absolutely not. Sure, he would probably eliminate racist encounters from his life, but the cost would outweigh the benefit. If everyone had to walk a distinct line and couldn’t express themselves for fear of offending someone who has a totally different interpretation of their means of self-expression, there wouldn’t be much freedom in the world. That’s where the “rebel” notion comes in. Many of the guys I know who own a General Lee, and also display the flag elsewhere, see it as a symbol of rebellion against corruption, including racism. Removing it because of the offenderatti would be like selling one’s soul.

I am a member of a club of General Lee replica owners. Even though incidents where someone confronts one of our members about the flag are rare, it does happen. When it does, many of us remind each other that this is a small taste of what it’s like being a black family moving into a white suburb populated with paranoid, racist neighbors. Yeah, we could avoid those experiences, but it’s an experience to which more people should be able to relate.

The members of our club are furious anytime some moron does something racist and “further defiles” that image by displaying the flag.

Admittedly, I would not display the flag on another vehicle. The context of the General Lee undoubtedly softens the blow for many flag-haters. I am a car enthusiast and the car, to me, represents a spirit of standing up for what is right. The car would still have had that effect if it had been pink with flowers and a peace symbol, because of the context of the series.

I grew up on a farm, and there is an attitude among some people that farmers are dumb rednecks, and all of the stereotypes that go along with that. And there is a lot of that same attitude toward the South. And I hate that, the same way I hate hearing racist remarks. I had a horrible experience in my previous job where I complained about a coworker’s racist remarks and it ignited a series of threats and other abuse from that coworker. That same coworker hated that I had the General Lee, explaining that I shouldn’t display that flag because of his decision of “what it meant.” And I can’t say I’m surprised that the same guy who stereotyped Asians and Africans also stereotyped Southerners/farmers. The point is, prejudice bothers me, whether it’s prejudice against minorities, religions, or regions, it’s painful to even listen to. Whenever I see that flag displayed in a positive light, I’m glad to see a little bit of a bridge forming between the two sides.

Of course I know that there will be some negative reactions, but in the same way, it would be at least as ignorant to assume that someone is displaying the flag because they hate black people. Especially when they have a bumper sticker that states that it is “not hate.” As absurd as it would be for me to expect everyone to have the same interpretation of that flag, it would be just as absurd of someone who sees that flag as a racist symbol to assume that someone displaying it also sees it as a racist symbol. If someone were to display it as an expression of their own actual racism, I would expect that they would add something else to it in order to clarify, because the flag itself it too vague. The “heritage not hate” bumper stickers even get a negative reaction and they’re really just saying, “Please don’t be offended. I don’t mean it that way.” It kind of creeps me out that people are so insistent that the flag is always evil, that they deliberately block out that disclaimer.

Another variation of the disclaimer bumper sticker is “I’m offended that you’re offended.” It’s another way of saying, “I’m offended that you are stereotyping me.”

Yes, there are living stereotypes out there with tattered flannel shirts, rusty pickup trucks, a flag in the back window, and a backwards attitude about anyone who isn’t a white, male, heterosexual Christian, but I know a lot of people who display the flag who would really let someone like that get an earful because such a person perpetuates the very stereotype they are fighting to eliminate.

Trying to eliminate the flag from the face of the Earth would be like trying to eliminate the N-word in rap music. Both are used innocently in certain contexts, in spite of (not because of) the negativity around them. Cut these people some slack.

wow…you’re just out of your mind aren’t you? I can’t believe you can equate skin color to choosing to display a symbol of a rebel nation that held as its ideals that of slavery and then pretending that anyone who might take offense to that as some hyper sensitive PC goon. I don’t come from the south and everyone who displayed it in the area I grew up in were either racist assholes or people deliberately trying to get a negative reaction from it (not that there were even any black people to offend where I grew up anyway so they were wasting their time).

Ok you are insane. Small taste? That’s not a taste that’s someone giving you a slightly hard time over something you choose to display and being given a chance to ‘explain’ your side of it to them. Compared to having people hate/fear you because of your skin color that’s not even on the same continent never mind a ‘taste’ of racism.

I’d say they weren’t defiling the image of that flag but upholding one of its ideals. Sure you may have a different take on it but I’d say they were keeping a closer adherence to its actual meaning.

I admit I don’t remember the show at all…but wasn’t it about a moonshine operation?

Constantly reminding people of an ugly past this nation has is hardly ‘building bridges’ between anything. Displaying a flag that is offensive to many people for valid reason creates the very sides you’re talking about. There should be no need for bridge building because there should be no separation to begin with. It’s the attitude that there’s two separate nations that many southerners seem to hold that causes many of these attitudes to be cultivated to begin with.

Maybe people are sick of the ‘pride not hate’ nonsense that many racists hide behind? I’ve seen many people claim in the same breath that they don’t hate black people they just want white people to be doing better. I’m not saying this of you of course.

Err how much of your life philosophy do you put on bumper stickers anyway?

I don’t think anyone wants to eliminate the flag from the face of the earth. They can indeed be used innocently in museums and a few other ceremonial places. It’s also baffling that you continue to see parallels between completely different contexts

  1. Black man uses a racist term for his own race
  2. White man uses a flag that can be seen as a statement of hate against another race.

BTW I think it’s totally bizarre that you have just done a huge post about context and interpretation but have trouble saying nigger. Does this not show that even you believe that even if everyone knows you’re not meaning it in a racist way that it’s still a line you should think carefully about crossing?

I should say that, gen’rally, the General Lee is viewed in a different way than the CBF alone.

Also, Charger is a lucky, lucky man.

Yankees don’t get to decide what Southern things mean.

Personally, I don’t fly flags or put bumper stickers on my car. As Sampiro said in the other thread, it is tacky in my opinion.

And if I lived in a neighborhood, I would do what I could to make sure that the neighbors enjoyed their quality of life as well. If I happened to be flying a particular flag (whatever flag) that made a neighbor feel reasonably uncomfortable, I would be glad to take it down as a show of respect. My quality of life isn’t hampered by not flying a flag in front of my house, and if it increases his quality of life, then it is fine by me.

That being said, it is absolutely wrong to say that ALL people who fly the rebel flag are trying to imidate or otherwise show a hatred of blacks or white supremacy. Sure, some hate groups and racist people use the flag for that purpose, but in my own experience, I know people who like that flag for historical purposes or to honor an ancestor who fought for the South.

They agreed with the philosophy of the Southern states; not slavery itself, but the concept of a limited government. They use the flag as a general “Fuck You!” to politically correct society and especially to the feds. I know this personally.

I come from Wyoming am I a Yankee? I’ve never really gotten that straight. Well I guess you’re right because I remember when my mother visited a few southern states with her husband she got screamed at by a ‘southern gentleman’ for being a stuck up Yankee bitch because she honestly didn’t realize the guy was talking to her while she read the menu. Her husband actually had to come out of the bathroom and talk this guy down and apologize for ‘her’ lack of manners.

Anyway back to the point are you saying that all southerners agree with Charger? They all have that particular meaning in mind when they display it? If so I can’t imagine how its managed to cling to its image as a racist symbol for so long.

By “General Lee” do you mean the flag or the car? And if you mean the car, did you ever live in the Bay View area of Milwaukee?

-Joe