So, the Confederate flag’s off the South Carolina Capitol, but back up at a memorial on the Capitol grounds: Confederate Flag
Do people think this compromise will end the matter?
Well, this is about as close as it will get. I sympathize with the African-American community on their stance of it. It is a bad part of american history. But I also see the viewpoint of those southerners who view it as southern heritage. The white people of the south were just trying to live their lives and put up a hell of a fight for it. I’d want it commemorated for that reason. I see it right with it being up in the National Confederate Memorial, think that’s what it’s called. As for it being up at the capitol building…mixed feelings.
I think that it is right that the flag was moved from the top of the capitol building and put where it belongs–the Confederate War Memorial. Why would this compromise not settle things? I, for one, am sick and tired of the reigning philosophy in this country of “if-we-pretend-it-didn’t-happen-then-it-didn’t.”
I suspect this “compromise” will last even less time than the Compromise of 1850.
I’ve been wondering where all these people have been staying, getting lunch and dinner, and buying gas for their vehicles. If they are buying in the state they are supposed to be boycotting, and given the crowds you see on TV, I wonder if this boycott is doing any good?
Granted, my assumption is that most are from out of state, with some being home town folks.
Oh, and the flag? shrug You’ll never satisfy everyone, so I’m fine with it being there. Let the NAACP boycott. That’ll keep out a few people, but I’ll bet more go as time goes by.
I find the flag offensive because it represents the defeated Confederacy.
Don’t forget that the Confederacy supported an economic system that contradicted the American value of “fair wages for a fair days work”, espoused democratic principals that were based on race, severely restricted freedoms [movement, education, marriage for a large percentage of the population], states rights which were translated to keep a landed “gentry” in power over welfare of the vast majority of people…
Other regimes that also included these aspects were: Nazi Germany, Pre Mandela South Africa, any political system before the Age of Democracy. These principals were and are against what are now commonly held to be American values, rights and freedoms.
Don’t forget that the Confederacy was a movement to secede from the Union [not that all rebellions are bad]. They lost the American Civil War which was brutal beyond comprehension and cost our society hundreds of thousands of lives; remember Antietam where over 70,000 lives were lost in one afternoon. I have no problem with honoring those that fought and died as soldiers, but I do have strong reservations against honoring that defeated, dispicable system.
Those who are pro confederate flag need to revisit their history books and base their support on reality and not the southern myth.
I would be horrified and offended if German provinces were able to post the Nazi flag “because it represents history”.
The war has been over for 130 years; this so-called compromise is not over. Not only should the confederate flag be forever restricted to historical reference only, its kissing cousins such as the Georgia flag should be challenged and changed to represent current day America.
I haven’t seen so many helicopters buzzing a government building since the fall of Saigon.
I personally thought that the flag should have been relocated to Manhattan, since the Confederate Flag is associated with “Dixie Land,” and there is some evidence to suggest that the original “Dixie Land” was in Manhattan.
I was really disappointed that the flag didn’t stay up another year. This year, there were over 40,000 people bussed in to protest the Flag. There might have been even more next year, and I had some neat ideas for souvenirs to sell.
Absolutely. The War Between The States did happen and slavery did exist. No amount of denying these things will ever change what did happen and did exist.
And, for the jillionth time, the flag in question is not and never was the flag of the Confederate States of America. It is not a symbol of racism and it is not an espousal of slavery.
It is and was a battle flag, no more and no less.
I think it will definitely end the matter.
It was so low-profile for so many stretches, only coming alive when a group could be gathered, that it will “die” for long stretches and be “alive” only on a few special holidays.
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The NAACP has said that the Confederate Flag should be in a museum, like all other flags that have flown over this land.
And this is the case!
If you want to get technical about it the THREE flags of the Confederacy are in museums. And the red flag with the blue X is NONE OF THE ABOVE.
You can call it the “Confederate Battle Flag” if you want.
That’s fine. It would be more accurate to call it Lee’s Battle Flag for the Army of Northern Virgina.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the fabric in question was made famous by an MGM motion picture named “Gone With The Wind.”
Period.
To link that flag with heritage and history is a r-e-a-l stretch.
We can thank GWTW for giving bigots without a knowledge of history THE WRONG FLAG to identify their cause with. In so doing, the picture helped preserve the REAL flag(s).
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And let's not forget that our American flag represents a country that supported an economic system that provided them with cheap tobacco, sugar, and cotton. Should we talk about the treatment of the Irish and other groups up in the Northern states? "Irish need not apply" wasn't an uncommon sign to see in ads calling for employment. Finally there's a little something called the 3/5ths Compromise in the US Constitution. If you'd like to examine the warts of the south that's understandable. But don't forget to set your sights a little further north from time to time. Hell, under the American flag we engaged in genocidal behavior against the Native Population. Is genocide better than slavery?
Marc
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I think that they are just admitting they lost. I would love to see the Confederate flag come down. To me, it represents that the South lost because of hatred and bigotry. When you lose a war, are you proud of it? Why should the South be proud of losing it’s war?
There is no “historical symboloism” in the flag. It’s a symbol of present day hate. To reiterate what was said above, this is akin to letting the Germans fly the Nazi flag because of it’s “history”.
I saw a bumper sticker that had a confederate flag with a slash through it. The sticker read: “you lost, get over it.”
My thoughts exactly.
I have to agree with Marc and evilbeth on this one. If we want to ban flags that stand for racism, bigotry, slavery, and assorted other evils, we might as well toss the ol’ Stars and Stripes for something new. Not to mention that simply banning a piece of cloth with stitching will not erase the events of the past nor heal the scars.
I’d even go a step further, and say the old Stars and Stripes should be taken more lightly, now that the Red Scare is over.
Ignore people who burn a few for show, to get that part over with, and then relax about it.
Let people put it on sweatshirts and carseats and stadium blankets.
They do that in England, and the queen is still there. No harm done.
Put a green peace symbol in the corner, display it with blue and red reversed. It’s just a pattern on cloth.
It’s NOT our country and honor.
It’s like the phone number of our country. Not sacred.
Or the White House. Gut it like Truman did and rebuild wood with iron. It’s a place to conduct business, not a shrine.
kiffa said:
And you think this differs how, exactly, from business as usual in the North at that time? I’ll answer that myself–it didn’t.
No. A quick look at my copy of James M. McPherson’s Battle Cry Of Freedom gives me numbers of approximately 6,000 killed and 17,000 wounded. This is a lot of fallen soldiers, but nowhere near 70,000.
As has already been pointed out, the United States as a whole engaged in some pretty horrible behavior in the past–including, let’s remember, slavery. (The vast majoriy of Confederate slaves were originally held as plain old Americanslaves.) Should we therefore get rid of the Stars and Stripes? For that matter, should we agitate the UK to get rid of the Union Jack? (We were British when slavery started, you know.)
It’s been over for 135 years, and I’ve always been amused by people who want to keep fighting it. I used to think this was just white pro-Confederate Southerners…but apparently not.
(Am I making fun of people who get worked up over this stuff? How could you thinksuch a thing?)
Well stated.
The question is moot as this particular genocide included slavery. Point to Mr. Gibson.
Hmm. I thought the Battle Flag belonged to Joe Johnston.
As for me, I acknowledge that people have connotations that are dissimilar to mine, but still find it distasteful.
Nope, I say give the flag to Jesse Ventura. He knows what to do with it.
I wish we could just get a bunch of well-respected (or even pseudo-respected) people (African-Americans would be great)to stand up and demand that South Carolina keep flying the flag just as a reminder to the whole world of how horrible those Southern rednecks treated everyone–you know, make those stupid Southerners wallow in their own ignorance and shame. I think that would be a wonderful way to end all this controversy.
On a side note, Georgia and Mississippi have been dragged into this ridiculousness but how has Louisiana managed to escape from scrutiny?
Arrrghh. Thanks for the correct figures re Antietam casualties; who was your source? I just checked Shelby Foote. Anyway, no excuses for posting wrong figures. I apologize to the members of SDMB for citing figures before checking. I’ll make more effort to be true to the numbers the next time I put them in.
It was once a battle flag. It once flew only over the field in Northern Virginia.
That’s what it was.
Now it is much more.
It represents many things to many people.
To some it is a legacy of hate. It reminds them of the humiliation they suffered at the hands of their Northern neighbors. To them it WAS the "War of Northern Aggression. And today they still hate the North for what it did, killing their ancestors, stealing their lands and families, their livelihoods. To them it wasn’t just race, it was POWER. The North was trying to use the federal government to usurp the power of the state governments (remember, the north has always had a larger population). The issue was always more than just slavery.
To some it is a different legacy of hate. Niggers. They hate them, and they know the South enslaved them. They don’t care about Southern pride and state power as much as they care about getting rid of the niggers, the kikes, the Catholics. Whatever isn’t wholesome to them they will kill. The Confederate flag is, to them, a VERY handy symbol.
To some it’s not their hate that the flag represents, it’s the hate born by others. Hatred of them and all they are. This is what the NAACP sees. It sees people that will do all they can to bring them down, crush them, grind them again under a tyrannic heel.
To some it represents pride. I’m glad to say that the only people I know of who wear the flag are in this group. They see the Confederate flag (the one in the memorial) as a locality, a group, a tribe. To them it is something they can belong to. “American by birth, Southern by the Grace of God”. They say that and they mean it. They love living in the South. While they bear some disdain for the North (they don’t have our values, they look down on us), they see it as part of their same nation. Some do hate the North and think the South will rise again. Others simply think of the South as their neighborhood, a place they live and can take pride in. These are the people that say “It’s not racism, it’s heritage”. And they mean it. The Civil War had a terrible toll on the South in terms of infrastructure, damage to land, and lives lost. The war and the years after are entirely a time of sorrow in their hearts.
Some hate, some fear, some mourn. The flag does not belong over the Capitol, solely because of its legacy. Because the flag, to half of the population of the state and one quarter of the population of the nation, represents something to hate and fear, it does NOT belong on the capitol. The memorial is the right place to put it. Because we should never forget things.
Dave Barry, in his satirical book on American History, titled the section on the Civil War “The Civil War: A Nation Pokes Itself in the Eye”, but he understated it. America tossed itself into a blender and is still recovering.
This issue will probably never end, because it’s not just about a flag, it’s about much more. It’s about hate, loss, division, the states v. the federal, racism, heritage, history.
As an individual, you remember the torments you suffered as a child. How much more lasting is the memory of a nation? And as those torments still sting, this war is still an open wound, and may never heal.