I think the problem is that for a lot of people the answer is a sincere “I don’t know” and “It would depend on circumstances” This is especially true when you start talking about the number of kids you want–I don’t think anyone can know that for certain, because there are so many variables.
Obviously, if two people both feel strongly and in opposite directions, their course is clear. But if you are ambivalent, what are you to do? Even restricting yourself to other ambivalent people is not a foolproof strategy, because you could both end up on opposite sides in the end.
I think sometimes there’s no amount of talking or risk-avoidance that will prevent the possibility of true, aching heartbreak, and when people are unlucky enough to end up in a situation that breaks the wrong way and they either have to separate or resign themselves to something other than what they wanted, that’s a situation that deserves sympathy, not tongue-clucking about why it’s important to be open and honest. Open and honest is good, but they don’t always prevent this stuff.
There is truth to that. For most men, their child care experience is pretty minimal, even now. Most women have done at least some childcare - although boys probably do more than they used to and girls definitely do less as we’ve decided as a society that an eleven year old can’t even be home by themselves, much less babysit. (Eleven was when I started babysitting).
I wouldn’t say men assume women want to be SAHMs, but they probably do unconsciously assume that their wife will take on the majority of housework and childcare - because that is what is modeled by society.
They simply have less skin in the game. They are very likely to end up without a career hit. Less likely to end up with the majority of pediatrician appointments. They’ll likely change fewer diapers, cook fewer meals. And then their is the biology - they don’t risk much - women risk PPD, eclampsia, diabetes, weakened pelvic floors, and squirting with every sneeze or laugh. And when the baby is born, no one is going to expect them to wake up three times a night to breastfeed.
FWIW, I ranged from “ambivalent” to “kinda wanted kids”. Probably why I waited until I was 40 to have my first. And when my wife actually got pregnant, I found the idea actually kind of terrifying for pretty much all the reasons people give.
But now that I have a 2 year old, it’s actually a lot of fun. It’s a lot of work though, and I can see how people might hate it if they are not in the right mindset.
Right on. It’s very important to guilt trip people who (somewhat?) regret having kids into never admitting it, otherwise they could prevent others from ending up in the same position, and then where would we be??
Although I have to admit even I am not in favor of saying as much in front of said kids…
Well, it’s always easy to dismiss problems you personally don’t have.
To me, being ambivalent about having kids = wanting them. Maybe there are still reasons not to actually have them, but there must be some level of desire or the person in question wouldn’t be ambivalent.
I don’t consider them a mistake. I am just not certain I would do it again. And I would advise anyone on the fence about it to not have kids, because there are no guarantees that you’ll suddenly feel something you didn’t before.
“I want to make my partner happy” - lousy reason to have kids, especially if your relationship isn’t stable.
“Its expected of me” - lousy reason to have kids
“I’d really like a baby” - lousy reason to have kids - they turn into teenagers :eek:
“Oops, I guess fate decided for me” - not a great reason to have kids
All of that is some desire to have kids. But having kids is a marathon often done at sprinting speeds. It isn’t something you should be ambivalent about. It is certainly not something you should recommend to a strange who is ambivalent about it.
Because I don’t think my kids are a mistake, but I’ve seen people who do - and that is a lousy thing to do to a potential child, to stick them with a parent who doesn’t really want to parent, but who was assured that “it will be different when they are yours.”
Good reason to have kids. I want to be a parent. If you don’t want to be a parent - and a parent when its 2am and a parent when they are sick and you are on your second trip to the emergency room in 16 hours, and a parent when they are stuck on Algebra, and a parent when they get suspended from school, or they choose to marry someone wildly inappropriate at 20, or they go into rehab at 30, or they get cancer and die…all things that have happened to my family - my parents, inlaws or myself - don’t have kids.
FWIW I am the youngest of five and am pretty sure that my mother never really wanted any kids, let alone five of us. Era. Born a few decades later she likely never would have married and have lived the life of a Bohemian artist.
Not sure if her life would have been happier one way or the other though. I think she was who she was, product of a tough childhood.
She married a man who came back from WW2 feeling that he had to do his part to repopulate the world’s Jews. Literally told us as young adults that she thought he poked holes in the condoms.
If any of my siblings had issues with her as our mother it was not because of that knowledge, but warm and fuzzy maternal she warn’t. I am glad I am here and loved my mom but some people know they are not cut out for the mothering biz. I doubt they are often wrong in their assessments.
I didn’t mean you should have kids if you are ambivalent about it. I agree that you should not. What I mean is that the thread is about continuing a relationship if you and your partner are not in lock-step about having kids someday. I think a lot of people in their mid-20s are ambivalent about having kids in the future and that it’s not reasonable to expect people to always end up in a relationship with someone who feels the exact same way in ten years–because most people don’t–including people who think they will never want kids and people who have always assumed they did. Both groups change and grow sometimes.
Obviously, if someone is very, very firm on one side or the other, you should believe them and not be dishonest, but on the other hand, I would never recommend someone who thought they “probably wanted kids someday” break up with a good match just because they want kids “for sure”. That might well end in tears, but everything about marriage might end in tears, and I don’t think that’s a big enough risk to be worth ending something true and strong. True and strong is hard to find, and true and strong can usually work it out. And it sucks for those who can’t–but, again, risk is just part of life.
Your post indicates if I read it correctly that you are in your twenties or late twenties? There are some higher risks for women who give birth past 30, though how significant it is, I’m not really sure. There will never be a perfect time to have a kid, if people waited till that time, nobody would ever have them. But at the same time a little planning never hurts, and you want to be in a good place in your relationship, finances, etc. when you have one.
As a Father of three children who spends a lot of his time with them, changing diapers, dressing them, putting them to bed, the whole nine yards, honestly having one child is no big deal, even when we had our second it was no big deal, we still were on even ground. When I hear friends complain about how hard it is having one child, I just laugh. When we had the third kid and became outnumbered that’s where it really became more difficult in earnest. But she is super attached to me, way more so than her Mother and I love her dearly, and don’t regret anything about having her. Honestly I can’t imagine having anymore and I don’t know how people in the old days managed to take care of ten kids or something, but it seems like Mommy probably did most of the work back in the day and that’s just the way it was. Those same people would probably laugh that I think three kids is a lot of work.
Whatever your wishes, just be upfront and honest with your significant other.
I wouldn’t either…but you have to make sure you are honest with yourself and your partner - because a woman who wants kids doesn’t have an endless amount of time to make up her mind before her fertility drops.
Also, it isn’t unusual to be ambivalent about wanting kids with one partner - then changing your mind with the next partner - recognizing that kids with one person would be difficult, but the next person would be enjoyable to raise kids with. 'Cause kids, in addition to their other challenges, challenge a relationship - they make you really define your values - and if you have differences of opinion in everything from whether eating in front of the TV is OK to religion, it creates a point of conflict in how to raise kids.
This is really some of the best advice in this thread, I think. I knew my Wife a long time when we got married. Or at least I thought I did, after having kids a lot of things changed and the children honestly put a strain on our marriage in many ways I didn’t forsee, we came pretty close to divorce and ended up going to counseling.
We are still hanging in there but disagreements over the kids, among other things certainly still come up, often the focus will become so much about the kids that Husband and Wife forget that they still have a relationship that needs just as much nurturing.
It’s true that men can’t take on the burden of being pregnant, nor can they breastfeed (if that’s the route taken), and there is a tradition of women staying home with the kids, but it’s certainly not universally true that men do less childrearing. In my immediate family there have been three stay-at-home dads and one stay-at-home mom (and that only lasted a couple years, compared to much longer term for the dads).
Not to mention the families that don’t have one mom and one dad.
I’ve read Dangerosa’s post a couple of times and see no bitterness, just facts. I always knew I never wanted kids and told my fiancée early in the relationship. But if we had changed our minds…I love him and he’s a great guy but there is no doubt that I would be the one doing the majority of the childcare. I see it all over the place, women not just doing it when the kids are little, but also chauffeuring them to soccer, tennis, what-have-you. It’s not even that men don’t want to, or don’t think about it, but bosses are more inclined to give women the time off to take care of the kid than they are the men.
All that being said, I also don’t see anything wrong with saying “My kids were a blessing, but I might not necessarily have chosen this life if I could do it again.” I don’t know why we all have to sit in judgment. Oh noooos! Someone said they might possibly regret a portion of their lives. Welcome to the human race, amirite?
Check back in with us when your little manipulator is 17, sneaking out of the house, breaking into the liquor cabinet, cutting class and doing other exhausting teenage boy things & let us know if you still love EVERY moment with the little bug.
If you don’t love every single moment of stress that your teenager puts you through, I will chalk it up to your mental illness.
One, I don’t think you can hand-wave away the breastfeeding thing. It’s not just a detail–it’s months, often well over a year, and it can be extraordinarily rough. I found the entire process incredibly exhausting (both because of lack of sleep, but also because producing milk just wore me out), restrictive, uncomfortable, and all around miserable. There were many reasons I didn’t have a second child, but not wanting to repeat the nursing experience was a significant factor.
Two, my husband is a SAHP, and I work a ton–50-60 hour weeks–and he is obviously extremely involved with our son and does the lion’s share of the childcare. But I still do a lot more than I would if I were a man. We are both about as progressive and open-minded on gender issues as we can be, but we have discovered that certain attitudes are deeply embedded. When I get home, I am the primary parent from the minute I cross the threshold and it lasts until I go to bed. On the weekends where I am home, I am the primary parent unless I leave the house. In the families I know with SAH moms, that’s rarely true: childcare on the weekends and in the evenings may be split more, but the SAH mom still often moves into the primary role.
We’ve both actively fought against this, we both agree it’s not fair, it’s certainly not as simple as my husband having gendered expectations–it comes from us both. I have friends with SAH fathers, and it’s a consistent pattern that is really hard to buck against. So while yes, my husband does a ton more childcare than I do, he also ends up with significantly more fucking-around-the-house time than I have–I spend weeks going from being mommy to work to mommy to sleep without any lull.
This is somewhat depressing to hear. I’ve read how women do more housework (here’s a cite for those interested) but that stinks that even with both of you aware of it and fighting it, it’s still deeply ingrained. Do you and your husband have any specific ways that you try to get things more balanced?
I remember years ago in family circle or one of those type of mags someone posted an article on how the couple adopted a kid she didn’t want and pretty much didn’t care about one way or the other now
I didn’t read the article but they printed the letters in response (and even made the note that there was tons more that were so violently written they couldn’t print them) and they excoriated the woman pretty badly I guess it was a anon "my experience one page essay type of things
the sad thing is there was a grandkid on the way and the lamented on how she she was going to have to be again over the grandkid …