How does the situation differ from Mexico under the PRI?
The PRI seems (from my brief reading) to have maintained its popularity via electoral corruption and fraud - neither of which the ANC have been accused of.
We vote for our president rather than have him chosen by the previous president. We have one province and several other municipalities *not *run by the ANC. And our elections are free and fair.
Slight nitpick - we vote for political parties in a national election, and then parliment elects the president of the country. So the president is basically the leader of the largest political party.
True, I was imprecise.
Is it a parliamentary system? That is, can the government be changed and the president removed by a vote of no confidence?
Yes.
Then you might at least tell us where you’re coming from politically. Do you wish the Apartheid government had never fallen? Or that SA had gone Communist? Or that the DA should unseat the ANC? Or what?
The latest issue of the Economist has a cover story on AIDS and how the number of infections is falling. Mbeki and his health minister get excoriated for their ludicrous beliefs and the damage they did but Zuma (and to some extent Mandela, who has apologized for not doing more) comes out reasonably well.
I don’t know, is it? You seem to know so much about South Africa. I’m sure you can dig up cites where Mrs Sisulu and Mandela have expressed complete disappointment in the results of their efforts :rolleyes:
And I know you were just copy-&-pasting, but next time edit your link title. *You *don’t get to call her MaSisulu :mad:
No sane person denies that there is plenty wrong in South Africa, plenty that needs to be changed, plenty of mistakes that have been made. And yet, one would hope that no sane person would deny that plenty of progress has been made.
Nelson Mandela and MaSisulu fought for a dream, one that is busy being realised little by little, and the fact that in 17 short years it hasn’t been realised should in fact not come as a surprise, except to those who would like to think that 1994 was a magical event that somehow wiped away the past and left everybody equal in a nice shiny New South Africa where we should all be happy and grateful and just get along.
Grim
Can’t believe I missed this.
I am saying quite literally that South Africa’s native black population should adopt the same principles as France and Europe toward foreigners. If France and Europe in general want to kick everyone “else” out, then Africa should not be begrudged that right. If Europe wants to come to their senses than Africa should, too.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If it’s bad for Africa, it’s bad for Europe; if it’s good enough for Europe… ah, what’s the point. We all know it’s only bad when Africa does it.
Nope, you don’t need to point it out. They should be ceding that land, too.
Nope. My view is that both must be recognized as either bad or good, not good for one and bad for the other. However it seems the world doesn’t like to work that way.
It’s maddeningly hypocritical that Europeans are kicking evil brown people out of their countries, and the “invasion” (read: non-violent immigration) of brown people is causing a huge right wing reactionary surge over there. Yet their conquering descendants over in Africa are whining because the same attitude is arising around them.
Except, of course, when the status quo is evil brown people “invading” the northern Pleasantvilles. And don’t think I’m excusing the Bantu-speaking people either. If we’re going to take this “accept the status quo” concept, which personally speaking is quite sickening, then let’s do it consistently. Consistency is not one trait you can say is common here.
My question is - why are we even concerned about what’s going on in South Africa when the same issue is playing out to a much bigger degree far north? What makes this such a big deal?
@ Le Jacquelope
The difference is that SA needs the Europeans and Asians for the economy to function. The reverse doesn’t apply in Europe.
Uh, the former is certainly not true. Africa can get along quite fine on its own… if the Europeans would stop interfering and the Muslims would stop invading from the Middle East. Most of the mess they’re in right now is because of European arbitrary border-drawings that happened during the rush for Africa, and Muslim extremism creeping its way down south from the Middle East.
As for the latter claim, Europe is experiencing a population decline if you factor out immigration. And worse yet, the European Union Commission members disagree with you wholeheartedly.
Now why would they disagree with you? Perhaps this is one reason why.
Right, well I’d like to see some evidence that it can get along fine on its own. It seems that it requires massive financial assistance from the West. Also, it’s not hard to see examples of regression once Westerner’s depart.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1713275,00.html
As for Europe, they have the same issue as Japan. In each case the answer is not unskilled immigration from populations that themselves are likely to be overrepresented in welfare. The Danish provide an example of this:
So you’re saying that white (and, for that matter, Asian) South Africans’ fate should be contingent on the policies of the French government over which they have no influence, and the attitudes of European countries to which they have, for the most part, only distant ancestral relation? This is surely collective punishment stretched to it’s furthest and most ridiculous limits.
Your argument seems to boil down to “two wrongs make a right”. Your post repeatedly complains about double standards applied to Africa versus Europe, when as far as I can see no-one in this thread has said that they approve of the European policies in question. (On preview: except, arguably, for Chen019.)
Surely hypocrisy requires that the conflicting attitudes be held by the same people? The accusation of hypocrisy is premised on the assumption that white South Africans are Europeans who just happen to live in Africa, and that they are somehow responsible for European countries’ policies.
I don’t know why you’re concerned with South Africa; I’m concerned with it because I’m South African. And we’re talking about it in this thread because - gasp - it’s a thread about South Africa. And I’m a little annoyed that you’re trying to hijack it into a argument about European immigration policy. If you want to debate about that, start a new GD thread, and if you want to pit Sarkozy (and he well deserves a Pitting) you know where you can do it.
South Africa is simply too modern, responsible and far-sighted to wage a war against it’s own minority citizens (European descendant South Africans are South Africans).
The country is neither Saddam’s Iraq, pre-Civil Rights USA, nor the insanity that was Apartheid South Africa.
I had an encounter with this just yesterday. We were at a local school’s International Fair (something like a miniature version of Epcot). I thought the lady at the Africa booth had a New Zealand accent, and I joked that she was at the wrong booth. She was extremely indignant, and said that she most certainly was not, she was as African as anyone born on the continent of Africa. My attempt to explain that I had misidentified her accent went nowhere. She was adamant that I had made a judement based on her race.
So I guess there is some level of sensitivity around this issue among white South Africans. I don’t know if this is something that comes with them from South Africa or they are just annoyed at ignorant Yanks. I once ticked off another one by mistakenly referring to the spelling/pronunciation of her name (Voerster = Foster) as a Dutch thing, rather than an Afrikaans thing.
She is the tennis coach at the school. I wonder why it seems like most of the white South Africans I meet in the US are tennis or golf pros.
I need to hang around with my cricket playing buddies some more. I don’t think I would have mistaken a Saffer accent for a Kiwi ten years ago.
It will not apply to the next generation of South Africans, either. Improved mass education, etc.
Or is this some more of your Bell-Curve-bullshit racial theorizing?