...will the board consider explicit transphobia hate-speech?

There was a time (not terribly long ago) when it was the conventional wisdom that the word “man” meant “male person”, and that both of those expressions specifically meant XY chromosomes, external genitalia (penis & testicles), no periods, no uterus, grows copious body and facial hair at puberty, etc.

Likewise in that same vein for “woman” meaning “female person” and corresponding to an array of physical genotype and phenotype characteristics.

We were introduced to the notion of transgender people via the personal narrative of people who explained that they should have been born as the other sex, that who they actually were was the same personae, the same identity, as the identities shared in common by the other sex. And they then sought physical transition in order to bring their bodies into alignment with their identities.

Society reacted to this initially with an attitude akin to “ooh circus freaks! weird kinky perverts!”, then a long period of somewhat accepting (to varying degrees) the people who identified in this fashion but still regarding them as irrelevant data as far as how they continued to understand what it means to be a man or a woman; and, now, in more recent times, by being increasingly inclined to fold an understanding of trans people into our everyday understanding of sex and gender.

At no point in this narrative so far does “REAL” crop up. There isn’t a “REAL” (empirically, objectively correct) answer available to us, precisely because the subject matter is social. The meaning of terms isn’t a fact that biological science, neurological science, embryological science can answer.

And we have not “arrived” at a final social destination whereby we can look backwards with smug self-righteous assurance that our current understandings are correct and that we were biased and wrong in the past. It’s still a work in progress.

“Hate speech” is also a social category. Nothing is intrinsically hate speech aside from how we collectively choose to define it. I, personally, would be fine with a board policy that it is not okay to use the loaded language “is not a real woman” / “is not a real man” but to allow and encourage discussion of the best use of various terms such as “man”, “woman”, “male”, “female”, the appropriate or inappropriate way to think of and understand transgender people, and where one’s feelings and reactions come from and so on and so forth.

To announce that ANY person is not a “real person” is cruel, hurtful, and narrow-minded. It reeks of prejudice and malice. Looking down on people as not worthy of being full fledged people is the hallmark of racism and all the other “isms”.

To say something hateful and bigoted and then say it isn’t “hate speech” is one of those, “No offense, but …”, statements. “No offense, Urbanredneck, but your opinions are ignorant and narrow-minded.” See, I didn’t mean any offense. I was just posting an opinion.

He obviously doesn’t mean they aren’t “real” in any other sense. They of course are real and exist - have flesh, blood, cells, DNA, etc. What he is arguing is that a trans person claiming to be another gender doesn’t really make them that gender.

Well, that’s the thing. I don’t think Urbanredneck implied that transmen and transwomen are not real people, only that they aren’t really men and women respectively.

If he had written, transgender people aren’t real people, I would have an entirely different reaction.

~Max

In response to the OP, my opinion is that transphobia should not necessarily be excluded from these boards, while transphobic hate speech should; also that the present example qualifies as transphobia but not hate speech.

~Max

Max, you too seem to be referring to transmen as transwomen. In your case, I assume it’s a slip.

People of the board, I give you Hida Viloria, an intersex activist who identifies as intersex. Hida considered themself to be neither a man nor a woman, neither male nor female. (Born Both, an excellent memoir).

Saying that someone is not a “real man or woman” is not necessarily the same thing as denying their personhood. There is closemindedness of the bigoted variety but there is also closemindedness of the “if you say that, that automatically makes you a bigot” variety. I’ve never been very fond of the attitude that “all the important people already weighed in on this and the correct answer is known and you just wrong, bro, and it’s not up for discussion”. Sometimes it’s necessary to wield that attitude anyhow, to avoid rehashing every damn thing for generation after generation, but I think there’s often a rush to that position as a political act, a way of trying to declare the discussion over, and our position (whatever it may be) the one that has prevailed.

Yes, sorry.

ETA: oh, I see what you mean. Looks like I read that thread backwards.

~Max

Banning such declarative statements robs us of the opportunity to question such statements and perhaps change the minds of those who make them.

The use of “real” is somewhat troubling because of the value judgement, but I don’t see anything wrong with the opinion that there is a difference between a transwoman and a ciswoman. I don’t think it falls into hate speech. Though I would agree that saying directly to someone “you are not a real man” would be being a jerk.

I didn’t even notice. Are you sure it’s deliberate?

Yes, that’s troubling. It doesn’t have to be “hate speech” to be bullying and being a jerk. That kind of behavior *should be * struck down, IMO.

I get the feeling that we are trying to dance on the head of a pin, here.

So, in essence, we have to decide how disparaging we can be and still get away with it. I still say that telling someone that he or she is not a real man or woman is totally demeaning and hurtful. So, it’s okay if it’s not officially “hate speech”? We should allow that?

According to the rules, if I got pissed off at you and said, “Max, your not a real man!”, I would be rightfully flagged for that because I would be berating a poster and not his opinion. The SDMB doesn’t consider it proper conduct. So, allowing “almost-hate-speech-but-not-quite” isn’t in the spirit of what we are supposed to be about.

Upon review the thread is about transmen calling out a company that used the female symbol (:female_sign:) to advertise menstrual products. Urbanredneck takes the position that transmen are actually women and therefore the female symbol is appropriate.

Transmen presumably still have menstrual cycles so the rest of my post does not apply.

~Max

Such a distinction is not unpractical if I think it applies to the current case.

In some contexts, calling into question a person’s gender is disrespectful. In a debate about the validity of transgender identities, I think calling into question a person’s gender can be appropriate. I think the present example qualifies.

Well, if I claimed to be a transgender man in a thread where we end up debating the validity of transgender identities, “Max, you’re not a real man!” could be appropriate, in my opinion. It’s pushing the envelope, and would have to be related to some argument, of course. You can’t call me a liar.

For example, the argument “transgender men are really women therefore using a female symbol on menstrual products is OK”.

~Max

See, this is why Sunny Daze going down this path of misparsing and distorting what Urbanredneck said is such a distraction. Half the posts in in this thread are now about something he didn’t say. Again, he said:

IN context, his second sentence should obviously be parsed as:

In other words, his rhetorical structure, in context, is precisely equivalent to saying (correcting his willful misgendering):

Nothing more. In plain English, his statement does not exclude the (misguided) belief that transmen are women, transowomen are men, i.e. that gender identity as distinct from biological sex assigned at birth is in some sense not real. Can we please put to bed the false claim that he said anyone is not a real person, and stick to the actual important issue at hand, of whether the vile things he did say should be tolerated on this board.

I guess I can’t exclude the possibility that it’s just sloppy rhetoric. I don’t feel inclined to search through Urbanredneck’s posts to find out if he deliberately misgenders habitually. And his approach is to drop turds and then disappear, so he’s unlikely to clarify the point himself.

That’s quite different, though.

If, for instance, someone here started calling black people the N-word, that would be a clear case of hate speech. That would be a case of insulting and denigrating people on the basis of race.

But the trans issue is more akin to Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black. In that case, someone who said, “Rachel Dolezal isn’t truly black” isn’t insulting Dolezal on the basis of her race, the person is challenging/questioning whether Dolezal is really a member of that race to fit the definition criteria to begin with.

I agree with this. Trying to pin down whether something is hate speech or not is not the relevant standard here. The board now has an explicit policy that we don’t want anarchistic anything goes freedom of speech when that results in widespread toxic misogyny. Why not a similar policy toward transphobia?

I don’t know where exactly where the line should be, given that we probably want to maintain some degree of flexibility in fighting ignorance and tolerating (say) initial misgendering and some degree of ignorance from someone who grew up in the Bible Belt and is clueless, but shows some inclination to want to learn something. But that isn’t Urbanredneck, he’s way over any line we’d care to draw, imo.

As a start, I think willful misgendering, after it has been corrected, should be warnable and ultimately bannable. Whatever someone’s opinion is about whether a transman is a “real” man, it’s being beyond a jerk not to have basic respect for how people feel about themselves, and what they want to call themselves; not to mention the fact that the word has an established meaning in the English language that’s not ideology-dependent.

Anyone is free to have a low opinion of Bone, but I’m pretty sure they are not free to persistently call him “Boner” whenever they refer to him (sorry Bone, the first silly example that I could think of). And misgendering has vastly greater psychological implications than a silly demeaning nickname like that.

The problem with a lot of the suggestions in this thread so far is that they give off a vibe of, “If we can’t make our viewpoint prevail via persuasion and debate, then we’ll just have to settle for making it prevail via force instead.”

I disagree with the premise that intentional misgendering necessarily amounts to disrespect for how the person in question feels about themselves.

~Max

This shows a gross misunderstanding of the concept. Gender identity is a real thing, with lots of science and study behind it.

This is a private message board. There’s no force involved here.