Will the disparity of weath distribution destroy America?

You’ll need to provide a site for that, because I know a guy that does the same thing and he says they ALWAYS suggest less money.

CEOs are replaceable, and if the company loses a bundle they get fired. Were you not aware of that? Just within the past year the following CEOs have been fired:
*Gilbert Fiorentino, CEO of CompUSA and Tiger Direct
*John Junker, CEO for Arizona’s Fiesta Bow
*Twitter’s longtime CEO Ev Williams

  • Medtronic’s CEO Bill Hawkins
  • Time Inc. CEO Jack Griffin
  • Wright Medical CEO resigns, CTO fired
  • Brian Heithoff, CEO of Consumers Energy
    I did a bit more digging and turns out shareholder anger is more wide spread than you realize, and actually causes a lot of problems:
    http://www.hreonline.com/HRE/story.jsp?storyId=533334572

“When I talk to my friends outside of finance and read the popular press, you find a knee-jerk reaction that not enough CEOs are fired,” says Taylor. The data shows that “2 percent of Fortune 500 CEOs on average are fired every year, but we have no benchmark for judging whether[that figure]is a lot or not enough.”

“When a CEO is fired, research shows there is a huge impact on that person’s career.”

For instance, Taylor points to previous studies showing that, when dismissed, CEOs go on to manage another firm – a firm that is 90 percent smaller and the CEO is paid significantly less.

401(k) =/= managed funds

That’s the first and most important point. As far as I’m concerned managed funds are garbage that consistently fail to beat the market on the way up, consistently fall faster than the market on the way down, and still managed to take a percentage in either direction.

(I couldn’t find the original article at the moment)

It’s this misconception that causes so many problems. People have an incentive to invest their $5000 per year in a 401(k), but have no incentive to actually do their homework. They use who ever their company provides, and invest in what ever the default is. So why wouldn’t the “default” be what ever makes the fund manager the most money?

If they want the voting right, and have an interest in that company, they can always buy the shares directly within their 401(k). If instead they are letting someone else pick the company they obviously don’t care about executive compensation. All they really care about is reducing their taxable income and getting the company match.

So we end up with the situation that people have been bitching so much about: the mutual fund (run by evil millionaires) is *playing *with other people’s money. If they win they advertise their great returns and take a cut of your portfolio. If they lose they blame it on something else and take a cut of your portfolio. What incentive do they have to get a return on your investment? The best part is they set up a dozen or so funds, so randomly one will succeed in any given year, and that’s the only one they have to advertise.

Which leads to my annoyance–my company only matches 401k contributions to their selected 401k provider (no idea of the legal status of that move), and those brokers simply will not buy straight-up stock for you (I asked).

I am not a financial adviser nor do I know the rules in your particular neck of the woods. But there are two ways around this:

  1. Max out your employer contributions
  2. Put the rest into your own IRA or Roth IRA that allows you to do what you want.

When you change jobs you can move the money from your 401k into the IRA.

You can also speak up about the issue and have it changed. And you can talk to the fund manager to get your allocations set up the way you want.

Long story short, the situation you’re in sucks I’ll agree, but it doesn’t entirely absolve you of your responsibility.

I’m also curious to know what would happen if you talked to your fund manager about share holder voting. You could then have some fun by getting the employees in your company (who are forced to call by the same product) to vote in a block. If you want to fuck with executive compensation that’s one way to go about it.

Been basically doing this. The real annoyance is that my private IRA that I’ve rolled all my previous employer-provided 401ks into is doing noticeably worse than the current company’s manage funds. :stuck_out_tongue:

Possibly they could see which way the wind was blowing? You’ll see a lot more, because now it is mandatory every three years, thanks to the Dodd-Frank bill. (note: pdf, but a small one.)
So don’t give them too much credit. And remember, it is advisory.
I used to vote for on stockholder proposals. I gave up, since it was about as useful as voting against Fidel Castro.

… as useful as voting against Fidel Castro?

Way to relate to your audience, diplomat. :smiley: (No, really, good one, I liked that.)

I don’t think that’s right. I think the center of gravity in today’s debate is not redistribution of wealth versus prosperity for all. I think the debate is the division of income among those who generate the income, the division between capital and labor.

We’ve got a society that is being eaten alive by corporate freeloaders who get wealth redistributed their way in the form of massive tax refunds while making billions off of gutting the middle class.

Corporate freeloaders.

To go back to the assault on CEOs, this article on CNBC runs through several of them

That’s a long list of the highest paid CEOs that either kept their companies growing or made huge turn arounds. Do they deserve bonuses? Pay raises? For each of the companies listed, there are competitors that didn’t do as well. Between the board of directors and angry investors heads will roll.

I also got another notice about share holder voting at a different company. Again it includes direct elections for/against the 12 board members. It includes voting on executive compensation as well as how frequently they are reviewed. But the last one was interesting: Stockholder proposal regarding political contributions and expenditures.

Can you expand on that?

Flat-out false - 6th to 8th (depending on methodology) at last count. Got anything else? Thought not.

Any proof of that? No, thought not. FWIW the contemporary wealthy families in the USA are overwhelmingly the historically wealthy families. And for those who weren’t, it’s on you to prove that they are so due to innovation and creativity. For example, Bill Gates showed none of either. His success was primarily due to business opportunism, good fortune, and ruthless exploitation of a near-monopoly.

What matters is that their claim to be rich solely though opportunity and talent is false. The part that chance, national condition and their own family circumstances played is simply waved away as inconvenient.

The topic at hand is “disparity of wealth”. The more you argue that the minuscule minority in the USA have a chance to become obscenely wealthy the more you undermine your position, or at the least fail to support it. To argue against the proposition at hand you ave to argue that the wealthy 1 in 100 you cite somehow benefit the 99 in 100 who had no such chance.

I give up. What happens? No idea what this sentence has to do with the topic of this thread. The failure to take advantage of opportunity of birth (no doubt due to a richly undeserved sense of entitlement and elitism), which leads to the “first generation nouveau wealth, second consolidation, third nouveau poverty” syndrome, doesn’t change the fact that being born to wealth gives you a staggeringly greater chance and opportunity to do well regardless of your native characteristics.

I’m going to go with “yes” on this question. Are you seriously proposing otherwise? The wealthiest person in the world is a Mexican and made his money in Latin America.

A third world dictator gathers his wealth through cronyism, nepotism, corruption and cleptocracy. A golden-age capitalist gains it through insider-trading and profiteering. A Maharajah makes it through keeping his population it servitude. That’s perfectly OK with you, makes no difference whatsoever? Do you have any awareness of the actual sources of wealth of the Roosevelts, the Kennedys, and the Carnegies? No, thought not.

I have no opinion on this question. I frankly don’t care. What has it to do with the topic of this thread?

Bullshit. Here’s how to demonstrate how totally wrong you are about this.

Take those 1 in 100’s, those John Galts whose name you indirectly referred to, and see where they would be without the working class schmucks who sweated to build their empires.

Bill Gates would not have written any version of Windows past 3.11 by himself (and offhand I doubt he wrote that on his own). He needed an army of working class programmers to do that.

Steve Jobs would not likely be designing an iPod from scratch - much less building, marketing and selling it all by his lonesome. He needed others to do that.
So you say that wealth, as in America’s prosperity, was built by 1 in 100? Fine. Take away the other 99 and see how far that 1 in 100 get. They wouldn’t have anyone to sell their innovations to.

And you dare to lecture me about economics 101? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Le Jacquelope]
Bill Gates would not have written any version of Windows past 3.11 by himself (and offhand I doubt he wrote that on his own). He needed an army of working class programmers to do that.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting. So…why didn’t they write it without Bill Gates? Why haven’t those army of ‘working class programmers’ written another OS to compete with Windows and put Billy out of business, since he’s so inessential to the process?

Why didn’t those ‘working class’ engineers and programmers create an iPod of their own and swipe Steve’s customers? Why haven’t they banded together to build one on their own and keep the profits for themselves? If Steve and Bill are so inessential to the process, why aren’t regular working men and women producing these things all on their own, instead of giving away their valuable labor to make other folks rich? It’s a mystery, no doubt…

And without the 1, and the capital, you wouldn’t have any innovations, so they are sort of interdependent. Which is why all this class warfare bullshit is, well, bullshit.

I agree completely…obviously, you haven’t even taken the pre-reqs for econ 101, so trying to teach you that is seriously jumping the gun.

-XT

1 in 100 is actually an interesting case study. If you read Outliers by Malcom Gladwell you’d know that Bill Gates was “lucky” enough to go to a school where he had access to a very early version of a computer. It’s true his school was exclusive, and access to the computer was some what limited, but the point is at least 100 kids at that time had the opportunity.

Bill Gates was fascinated by the machine and was willing to devote time to playing with it. While other kids were making out behind the bleachers, he and three friends found ways to hack the machine to give them more time. The other three where Paul Allen, Ric Weiland, and Kent Evans, two of whom were the initial founders of Microsoft.

At the same time, on the other side of the country, only a handful of universities had access to early computers. 1 in 100 students were willing to spend their free time “playing” with the code. Keep in mind these computers cost a fortune, so students with access were “lucky” but it wasn’t a case where rich kids with rich parents had a computer bought for them. These computers were also being used during the day for real work, so to get access meant using them overnight when no one else was. This was the case for the developers Oracle and Sun Microsystems if I remember correctly.

These aren’t people that came from huge sums of money, they were the ones willing to devote huge amounts of time with very little pay.

The so called “team of developers” came decades after Microsoft started.

And the point to all this is that there were 100 kids that had the opportunity to be Bill Gates, only three others could be bothered.

Steve Jobs was a broke Buddhist living on his friend’s floor for most of his early career.

Warren Buffett came from a good family, but the guy started his business career as a child selling news papers. He pulled together capital for a pinball machine. He wasn’t just handed a huge some of money to make himself rich.

This difference in the US from a lot of other countries with similar distribution of wealth is that America provides the opportunities few others can. You don’t need to be part of the royal family, you don’t need to be born into the Brahman class.

Canada is way up on the list, and having grown up there I can tell you the opportunities for wealth just aren’t there. It is, however, very easy to grow up and become middle class. My wife and I are the 1 in 100 that grew up and left to make more money. The other 98 got nursing/education degrees and live a nice simple middle class existence. If you want a be a billionaire Canada isn’t the place to do it.

Look again at the list of the top 400 and notice how many of them were guys that made millions in their home country, then moved to the US to make billions.

Where I grew up also produces really good hockey players. Lots and lots of them thanks to subsidized programs and good genetics. But the nature of the programs only produces “good” players. If you want to be great, if you want to make the NHL, you need to leave. The opportunities aren’t there. We don’t have semi or professional teams, we don’t have hockey scholarships. So 100 kids can be reasonably good hockey players. There is no chance for the 1 to become great unless he leaves.

Why the hell would you give people an infaltion adjustment for capital gains? We don’t give people an infaltion adjsutment for interest on long term debt.

The only real justification for lower capital gains rates was that incoem tax rates were once SOOOO progressive that capital gains earned through a lifetime at the 30% tax rate might end up getting tax at 90% when you finally cashed out. it was a method of smoothing out the effect of VERY high marginal tax rates.

The way that wealth is distributed between labor and capital is not necessarily the way it must be or even should be distributed between labor and capital.

I know you have some theory of risk that is the grand unified theory of economics in your mind but its not really something anyone can take seriously.

I think we both want the same thing, a strong vibrant economy where people can thrive and provides a social safety net.

If you want a strong economy, you need demand to be as strong as supply. You can’t grow an economy if everyone is trying to screw labor.

You ever hear the story of Henry Ford and why he started paying people $5/day? He wanted to sell cars and the only people that could afford them were doctors and lawyers. Remember that production and consumption have to even out as some point and when the wealth created by the application of labor to capital goes overwhelmingly to capital, then the only people who can create demand are the very wealthy and pretty soon you have an economy that is geared towards providing goods and services to the very wealthy and that is simply not enough demand to keep people fully employed.

Ignoring the personal insult, let’s focus on this.

Ford was effectively overpaying his employees. To me, this represents labour screwing capital. $5/day was more than they needed, but were happy to take it. It cut into overall profits, but Ford was okay with that because he was effectively giving his employees a staff discount, something pretty common today. Ford currently offers their employees reasonably generous discounts on their cars.

First problem, this only works if everyone overpays their employees. Ford’s employees were also able to go out and buy GM and Chrysler. Those two companies were okay paying market wages so they could either sell cars cheaper, or make more profit. Ford was effectively giving the other automanufacturers his money. How sustainable was that?

He was also doing it at a time when he had a near monopoly in the auto industry. Now the auto industry is one of the most competitive markets, how do you expect Ford to survive if they have to pay 3 and 4 generations of benefits.

But the key pointed missed in your example is that Ford was squeezing his labour has hard as he could. His entire empire was built on the premise that he could make more cars with fewer people. He took an extremely labour intensive process and streamlined it to the bare minimum. Look up the stats for how many cars he was able to produce and how that changed over the course of a decade.

He didn’t accomplish that by simply adding more staff, he produced more with less. He could have paid thousands $1/day, but instead paid a few $5/day. Exactly the opposite of what you seem to want. But while producing more he was also able to lower the cost of each Model-T.

Fast-forward a few decades and productivity gets increased by the addition of mechanization and automation. Ford can now make more cars with the same number of people. But as I’ve said repeatedly, increased productivity isn’t because labour is doing a better job. They aren’t working harder/faster/smarter. Their share of the wealth is now shared with the robots who don’t need a pension plan.

Looking at the world from a 1910’s perspective isn’t going to solve your problems. A farm back then took dozens of guys weeks of work to get 50 bushels of corn per acre. Now one guy can plant an acre of corn in less than 18min, harvest it even faster, and get 180 bushels.

So, now I have to ask, since you brought up the Ford example, do you want us to go back to a time when you can have any car you want as long as it’s a black Model-T? Or do you like that technology has improved and the modern car is considerably better than a Model-T?

I’ll further put this challenge to you: in a society where people without skill or talent are paid a high salary, what incentive is there to aquire skill or talent?

ETA The point I think you’re missing is that it’s not up to capital to figure out how get labour more money. Ford set out to make himself more money, his employees chose to make cars so that they’d have money. Any one of them could have (and some did) set up their own shop and make cars. Supply is responsible for figuring out supply, and demand is responsible for figuring out demand.

Sure you can grow an economy by screwing labor - you can grow it overseas.

I wonder if these pro-offshoring people realize this is exactly what is happening now - jobs are happening overseas and not here.

This will not be a “demonstration” it is your own oppinion.

Yes, and those working class schmucks collectively get paid the market value of their labor. Some of them get paid pretty darn well.

Yes but the simple fact that you seem to be unable to grasp is that those working drones are effectively useless without someone to provide them some sort of vision or direction. There is a lot more to running a multi-billion dollar business than writing a bunch of code for some hardware.

Each other?

If someone’s contribution is so valuable, why can it so easily be replaced by a machine or a guy halfway around the world?

I dare. Now sit there and take it.