To answer the OP, the U.S. has never engaged in indiscriminate warfare. Each and every military operation, from George Washington kicking Cornwallis’ ass to Stormin’ Norman kicking Saddam’s ass, has been conducted with the utmost care for civlians. There has never been a documented case of any American soldier acting improperly in this regard. Most historians agree that American soldiers are well-nigh unto modern-day saints.
I don’t intend to provide any cites for this, nor to listen to any contrary information. After all, facts are not required here in GD. And my opinion is as good as anyone else’s, right?
Rick
P.S. Sheesh. For those humor- or sarcasm-impaired folks, if any there be, the foregoing was not serious. Anyone too lazy to provide factual cites should be posting in IMHO and/or MPSIMS - no insult intended to the regulars in those fora; merely a commentary on the purpose of having a place to post opinions as opposed to a place to engage in rational, fact-based debate.
Hold yer strafin’ some and let’s take another shot at this OP. Hairy’s admitted to using hyperbole and you have made it clear that it wasn’t appreciated.
First point: no the US doesn’t engage in “indiscriminate” warfare but its record is not as squeaky clean as some of you would like to pretend. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you about civilian casualities in Viet Nam. Remember the smell of napalm in the morning? And the Gulf War–despite much media hype to the contrary–was very hard on Iraqui civilians. So-called smart bombs were often too dumb to stay on target, one Iraqui city was bombed as a legitimate military target, and, most of all, the country’s infrastructure was destroyed, resulting in many unncessary deaths due to bad food and health. It is not a pretty picture. For cites see the Human Rights Watch’s report on the subject (not available on line). The real point though: what has been the result of this protracted punishment of the Iraqui people? Has Saddam been eliminated?
I take such questions to be the intent of the OP despite the hamfisted overkill in the first paragraph.
Personally, I like the sound of this proposal (and the rest of the linked article is well worth reading).
“In an article for Salon.com, [Michael Klare] suggested that the United States indict Osama bin Laden and his associates as mass murderers and organize a multilateral campaign that pursues their capture as a criminal manner, not a war.
Additionally, Klare would have the United States mount an effort to encourage influential Muslim clerics to condemn bin Laden as an enemy of true Islam. “To win over peace-minded Muslims to our side in this struggle,” Klare writes, “we will, of course have to show greater sympathy for their concerns.” That is, recognize context and revisit U.S. policy in the Middle East – not to appease bin Laden (who cannot be appeased) but to construct a coalition that can help us achieve justice without a war that could create new set of problems, such as civilian casualties, instability in important nations, and greater antipathy toward the United States. Klare’s strategy might even be less likely to stir further terrorism than a heavy-handed military-oriented approach.”
We’ve already indicted Osama bin Ladin for the Embassy bombings. Y’know, where ~200 Kenyans who worked at our embassy were blown to bits? He is already an indicted mass murderer. If the Taliban wouldn’t release him for the embassy bombings, why are they going to start now?
Osama bin Ladin is an indicted mass murderer. We have asked the Taliban to hand him over. They won’t do it.
Now, Mandelstam, what do we do next? Ask them again, this time more nicely? No, now we threaten to go in and arrest bin Ladin ourselves. If the Taliban gives him up before the invasion, well and good. If not, we go in and get him. And anyone that shoots at us will be shot back at.
Or do you believe that unless the Taliban cooperates we are completely out of luck? Remember, that according the the US and all other countries in the world (except 2), the Taliban is not a government…and in fact Afghanistan has no government at this time. So it would be comparable to an operation on the high seas, where no government exercises authority. Heck, I bet we can get somebody from the last recognized Afghan government to give us permission to go in.
Luckily, I can’t imagine that these terrorists will be the type to surrender quietly and stand trial. They will shoot back, and our troops will return fire, and they’ll be mostly killed.
Read what Klare wrote more carefully Lemur: a “multilateral campaign” to “pursue [terrorists’] capture” is not a polite follow-up to an ignored request. In fact it need not be all that different from some of the things you describe. The main thing is a) to create as much international consensus and cooperation as possible, particularly in the Middle East, b)to avoid the irresponsible and unhelpful rhetoric of “WAR” (which is exactly what the terorists want) and c) to show the difference between the United States and its terrorist enemies.
Moreover, even if one wanted to put ethics entirely aside, on purely pragmatic grounds a “war on terrorism” is a bad idea. Read the rest of the link I posted. In the short-run it may appease the media-hyped public hunger for a macho response, and it will play into the hands of hawks and others who love the idea of carte blanche military budgets and wartime non-accountability to the public. But it will do nothing to protect you, me or our loved ones from further terrrorist attacks, and it will do nothing to send the message that the US is a humane and just nation that, however unilaterally powerful, practices what it preaches.
What would be particularly unhelpful right now would be the kind of massive bombing campaign of the Gulf War. There–however unethical and ultimately pointless–there was an infrastructure to destroy; in Afghanistan there is not. So that the US and its allies would be perpetuating mindless violence against an already vulnerable and longer-suffering people with no clear tactical object in sight. Beyond that there is the possibility of a ground war with large US and allied casualties and again for what purpose? Have you read anything published on this subject? Historically, even the occupation of Kabul hasn’t meant victory for invaders of Afghanistan. And if Pakistan with its nuclear weapons is driven into civil war and becomes another fundamentalist state as a result of some protracted war of this kind, where is the gain?
In fact, the only kind of sane and pragmatic “war on terrorism” would be one that rejects that metaphor entirely. It would probably consist of the kind of campaigns and policies that Klare describes. The ironic thing is that given Americans’ aversion to US casualities, and given the uselessness of bombing Afghanistan, if the US is smart they may well do something less like the Gulf War and more like what Klare describes. Only, insofar as they do, the rhetoric of war itself will retard that purpose. So I think it’s testimony to what is most hypocritical and even quasi-fundamentalist in our country, that we can’t see a way to respond to this horror with conjuring our own counter-jihad.
My intent was not to inflame; I have no love of sensationalism. I am speakin in fear of seeing mistakes repeated by the U.S. In Vietnam, the U.S. largely ignored the Vietnamese culture, ultimately unleashing the worst bombing since WWII on a tiny nation that respected tremendous power withheld (“United States Policy and the Third World; Problems and Analysis”, Charles Wolf). In Iraq, the U.S. again engaged in massive bombardment and a show of force that included numerous acts regarded as war crimes by authoritative individuals (“War Crimes, A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq”, Ramsey Clark and others). It should be very understandable that I am very frightened by the prospect of the U.S. repeating policy and actions that will only make a bad situation worse, resulting in our allying potential friends to our terrorist enemies.
I am interested in hearing if others share this fear. I am even more interested in hearing opinions or information that would point to a constructive change in U.S. policy. I got of too an impulsive, undisciplined start in this OP, but my intention was to stimulate useful discussion, and not to inflame an already traumatized public.
I agree that a massive and indiscriminate bombing campaign isn’t going to work. And I agree that getting our allies on line is a must. And making sure that moderate arab governments are not offended is essential.
But why are you so convinced that all Bush wants to do is drop thousands of tons of bombs on Afghanistan? Have you been listening to the speeches?
But, we are going to have to get rid of the Taliban. Even if they turned over OBL, they will still be harboring terrorists. We must establish a government that doesn’t allow that.
Everyone is frightened by the history of military actions in Afghanistan. But, what were the objectives of those invasions? If we want to occupy the country indefinately and run it as a colony, then we will fail. If we want to help the Afghans get rid of the Taliban then we can easily succeed. That will mean ground troops. That doesn’t neccesarily mean heavy casualties either. If we’re smart most of the Afghans will support us…as long as we don’t overstay our welcome. If ground troops are still stationed in Afghanistan five years from now, I would imagine that they will be subjected to constant guerilla raids. But hopefully it won’t come to that.
There is going to be fighting. People are going to get shot, and bombs are going to be dropped. So what?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS:
From Wounded Knee to Afghanistan
Compiled by Z. G.
(revised 09/20/01)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from
1890 to 2001. This guide does NOT include:
*Demonstration duty by military police
*Mobilizations of the National Guard
*Offshore shows of naval strength
*Reinforcements of embassy personnel
*The use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the DEA)
*Military exercises
*Non-combat mobilizations
*The permanent stationing of armed forces
*Covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role
*The use of small hostage rescue units
*Most uses of proxy troops
*U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes
*Covert operations not directly involving the Dep’t of Defense
*Foreign disaster assistance
*Military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat
*Civic action programs and many other military activities.
Among sources used, besides news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corps History Division, Ege &
Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug. 1982), and Daniel Ellsberg in Protest & Survive. “Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993” by Ellen C.
Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service.
SOUTH DAKOTA
1890 (-?)
Troops
300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA
1890
Troops
Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE
1891
Troops
Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI
1891
Troops
Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated.
IDAHO
1892
Troops
Army suppresses silver miners’ strike.
HAWAII
1893 (-?)
Naval, troops
Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO
1894
Troops
Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA
1894
Troops
Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA
1894-95
Naval, troops
Marines land in Sino-Japanese War.
KOREA
1894-96
Troops
Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA
1895
Troops, naval
Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA
1896
Troops
Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA
1898-1900
Troops
Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES
1898-1910(-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos.
CUBA
1898-1902(-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO
1898(-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM
1898(-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA
1898(-?)
Troops
Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA
1898
Troops
Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA
1899(-?)
Troops
Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA
1899
Troops
Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO
1899-1901
Troops
Army occupies Coeur d’Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA
1901
Troops
Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA
1901-14
Naval, troops
Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99.
HONDURAS
1903
Troops
Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REP.
1903-04
Troops
U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA
1904-05
Troops
Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA
1906-09
Troops
Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA
1907
Troops
“Dollar Diplomacy” protectorate set up.
HONDURAS
1907
Troops
Marines land during war with Nicaragua.
PANAMA
1908
Troops
Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA
1910
Troops
Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS
1911
Troops
U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA
1911-41
Naval, troops
Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA
1912
Troops
U.S. interests protected in Havanna.
PANAMA
19l2
Troops
Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS
19l2
Troops
Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
CUBA
1917-33
Troops
Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I
19l7-18
Naval, troops
Ships sunk, fought Germany
RUSSIA
1918-22
Naval, troops
Five landings to fight Bolsheviks.
PANAMA
1918-20
Troops
“Police duty” during unrest after elections.
YUGOSLAVIA
1919
Troops
Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
HONDURAS
1919
Troops
Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA
1920
Troops
2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA
1920-21
Troops, bombing
Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY
1922
Troops
Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir).
CHINA
1922-27
Naval, troops
Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS
1924-25
Troops
Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA
1925
Troops
Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA
1927-34
Troops
Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR
1932
Naval
Warships sent during Farabundo Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC
1932
Troops
Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II
1941-45
Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear
Fought Axis for 3 years; Over 200,000 civilian casualties in 1st nuclear strikes.
DETROIT
1943
Troops
Army puts down Black rebellion.
IRAN
1946
Nuclear threat
Soviet troops told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan).
YUGOSLAVIA
1946
Naval
Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.
URUGUAY
1947
Nuclear threat
Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE
1947-49
Command operation
U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
CHINA
1948-49
Troops
Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
GERMANY
1948
Nuclear threat
Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
PHILIPPINES
1948-54
Command operation
CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO
1950
Command operation
Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA
1950-53
Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats
U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate;
A-bomb threat in 1950, & vs. China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN
1953
Command operation
CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM
1954
Nuclear threat
Bombs offered to French to use against siege.
GUATEMALA
1954
Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov’t nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT
1956
Nuclear threat, troops
Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; marines evacuate foreigners
LEBANON
1958
Troops, naval
Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ
1958
Nuclear threat
Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA
1958
Nuclear threat
China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA
1958
Troops
Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM
1960-75
Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt &
North Vietnam; 1-2 million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in 1968 and 1969.
CUBA
1961
Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY
1961
Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA
1962
Nuclear threat
Naval
Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with USSR.
LAOS
1962
Command operation
Military buildup during guerrilla war.
PANAMA
1964
Troops
Panamanians shot for urging canal’s return.
INDONESIA
1965
Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
1965-66
Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA
1966-67
Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT
1967
Troops
Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES
1968
Troops
After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA
1969-75
Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN
1970
Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS
1971-73
Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; “carpet-bombs” countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA
1973
Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST
1973
Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE
1973
Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA
1975
Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA
1976-92
Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN
1980
Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages;
8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA
1981
Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR
1981-92
Command operation, troop advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war,
soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA
1981-90
Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants
harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON
1982-84
Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy
bombs and shells Muslim and Syrian positions.
HONDURAS
1983-89
Troops
Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
GRENADA
1983-84
Troops, bombing invasion four years after revolution.
IRAN
1984
Jets
Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA
1986
Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov’t.
BOLIVIA
1986
Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN
1987-88
Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA
1989
Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS
1989
Troops
St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES
1989
Jets
Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA
1989-90
Troops, bombing
Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA
1990
Troops
Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA
1990-91
Troops, jets
Iraq countered after invading Kuwait; 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ
1990-?
Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes;
200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT
1991
Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES
1992
Troops
Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA
1992-94
Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil
war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA
1992-94
Naval
Nato blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA
1993-95
Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI
1994-96
Troops, naval
Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
CROATIA
1995
Bombing
Krajina Serb airfields attacked before Croatian offensive.
ZAIRE (CONGO)
1996-97
Troops
Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA
1997
Troops
Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA
1997
Troops
Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN
1998
Missiles
Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas plant. Over 30, 000 civilian casualties. US blocks UN war-crimes inquiry at the security council.
AFGHANISTAN
1998
Missiles
Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ
1998-?
Bombing, Missiles
Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA
1999-?
Bombing, Missiles
Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. Continued U.S. occupation as NATO force in southeastern Kosovo.
YEMEN
2000
Naval
Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole.
MACEDONIA
2001
Troops
NATO troops shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES
2001
Jets, naval
Response to hijacking attacks.
AFGHANISTAN
2001
Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, al-Qaeda forces.
War could expand to Iraq, Pakistan, and beyond.
For more information or with comments and additions please contact: E-mail: mtn@igc.org
Permission to reproduce this list in its entirety is granted by the author, please send any published copy to the above address.
Excellent post, GEORGE! Now if I could just figure out what the 1892 suppression of the violent Molly MacGuires in Kellogg, Idaho, has to do with preventing international terrorism, I’d be all set.
This(scroll down half way) list is both inaccurate and grotesquely long. Why do you keep posting it? It is oversimple, irrelevant, and factually wrong. Too many examples of “wrongness” to even attempt.
Regarding the “30,000 civilian casualties in the 1998 Sudan bombs”, I wrote the author and he said, "Thank you: I don’t know where the hell that figure came from!
Someone reposted my list in text form (apparently because people had problem printing my web list). I assumed the list came straight from the website where I had
posted it: http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm
On my web list, I have nothing about 30,000 casualties, which is ridiculous. I should have been more careful and seen if something was added to my original list. It looks like the only addition. I will check into this".
Good catch, Beagle. The USS Cole is not mentioned on the web page either, but the web page only goes up until 1999.
Otherwise, the author says his list is not inaccurate or factually wrong at all. Beyond the Sudan and maybe the Cole cases you cited, which are a small percentage of the list and I have now corrected, what do you think is wrong about it? I think it is very relavant to the discussion.
Moderator, could you please edit out the part about “30,000 deaths in 1998 Sudan” in my long list above? Better yet, now that I know there is a web page that contains the info, could you delete all or most of my long post with the List of US Military Interventions (leave the intro and ending), and replace it with a reference to the web page: http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm
I am very, very impressed by the restraint being shown by the President and his keepers. They seem to be working very hard to build both alliances and intelligence networks to combat terrorism. It certainly apperars to me that small operations based on intelligence are most likely to reduce the chances for future terrorism.
My only caution is that the “War on Terrorism” will be used to justify substantial increases in the military budget. I hope that people will scrutinize any such budget proposals very carefully. If history is any indicator, however, patriotism and fear of the enemy will be used effectively by proponents of higher military spending to promote their private agendas.
