Will the U.S. ever be a "post-Christian society"?

[Thudlow_Boink]

@BrainGlutton

BTW – just in case there’s any confusion – I’m using the word “fundies” as shorthand for religious-political conservatives in general – including Catholics. In today’s America, the most important religious divide is not between Protestants and Catholics, it is between those who are deeply and traditionally religious and those who are not. (Jack Chick’s MMV.) The former are a minority nowadays – but a very, very large and well-organized minority.

I’ve heard that it’s only in America that Christians, particularly Evangelical Christians (or “those who are deeply and traditionally religious”), are so closely associated with the political right. (For instance, there’s the phenomenon of Christian leaders in the U.S. encouraging their flock to support pro-gun politicans: European Christians probably think “Is that nuts or what?”)

[Metacom]

@BrainGlutton

n today’s America, the most important religious divide is not between Protestants and Catholics, it is between those who are deeply and traditionally religious and those who are not.

No, it’s between religious Fundamentalists and the rest of the world.

There are Christian denominations and groups that are not fundamentalists and whose beliefs and traditions predate the modern fundamentlist movement–I don’t know how you can say that a modern Fundamentalist who worships to a Christian Rock band in a converted warehouse is more “traditional” then a liberal Quaker or Anglican.

Likewise, I know plenty of “liberal” Christians who are deeply religious. One can be deeply religious and still accept evolution as scientific truth and homosexuality as morally neutral.

[FriarTed]

@Evil Captor

I think things would improve a lot if we could just get the Baptists to hold their brethren under the water for a few minutes longer during the baptism ceremony.

hey! Is it OK if I say that I think things would be a lot better if pro-choicers would choose to abort more of their children or if they parents had chosen to abort them?

Both comments show about as much tolerance & depth of thought.

[FriarTed]

@FriarTed

if they parents had chosen to abort them?

“if their parents” :smack: :wally on myself!

[BrainGlutton]

@Metacom

There are Christian denominations and groups that are not fundamentalists and whose beliefs and traditions predate the modern fundamentlist movement–I don’t know how you can say that a modern Fundamentalist who worships to a Christian Rock band in a converted warehouse is more “traditional” then a liberal Quaker or Anglican.

Likewise, I know plenty of “liberal” Christians who are deeply religious. One can be deeply religious and still accept evolution as scientific truth and homosexuality as morally neutral.

Perhaps instead of “traditionally” I should have said “enthusiastically.” In the sense that they actually want to reform/transform our society and polity along their version of Christian lines.

Most Americans, of course, are believing Christians – but their ancestors might not recognize them as such. from The Next American Nation, by Michael Lind (New York: Free Press Paperbacks, 1996 – http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684825031/qid=1126799155/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3795953-3250306?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), pp. 278-279:

Conservatives do not recognize how much the nation has changed since the fifties in its religious attitudes. It may be that the religion of nominal Christians in the United States can no longer be described as traditional trinitarian Christian. The scholarly term for their belief is henotheism, the belief that all ethnic groups and cultures have, and should have, their own gods and rites. In Christian theology, this is the heresy of indifferentism. Robert Linder and Richard Pierard have described the evolution of American civil religion: “Its umbrella has changed from evangelical consensus to Protestantism-in-general, to Christianity-in-general, to the Judeo-Christian tradition in general, to deism-in-general.” The decline in belief in Christianity as the only true religion has been extraordinarily rapid in the United States. In a poll taken in 1924 in Muncie, Indiana, 94 percent of high school students agreed that “Christianity is the one true religion and all peoples should be converted to it.” By the late 1970s, merely 38 percent of respondents in a later poll in Muncie agreed that Christianity was the only true faith. Two-thirds of the respondents in a 1991 poll agreed that Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists “pray to the same God.”

Does that make us a “post-Christian society” already? Maybe, maybe not. See this old GQ thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=191274

[Thudlow_Boink]

@BrainGlutton

Perhaps instead of “traditionally” I should have said “enthusiastically.” In the sense that they actually want to reform/transform our society and polity along their version of Christian lines.

Originally, Christianity was not at all about political clout or transforming society. It’s unfortunate that so many people today, both inside and outside the church, have the impression that it is.

[Gaudere]

Evil Captor

I think things would improve a lot if we could just get the Baptists to hold their brethren under the water for a few minutes longer during the baptism ceremony.

[Moderator Hat ON]

This is not appropriate in Great Debates, Evil Captor.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

[BrainGlutton]

@Gaudere

Evil Captor
[Moderator Hat ON]

This is not appropriate in Great Debates, Evil Captor.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

Oh, lighten up, Gaudere! He’s talking about Baptists! If anybody ought to be fair game . . .
An Episcopalian is a Presbyterian with the trust fund.
A Presbyterian is a Methodist with a college education.
And a Methodist is a Baptist with shoes.

– Old American joke (anachronistic, of course – many Baptists now have college educations and not a few have trust funds).

[FriarTed]

@Thudlow Boink

Originally, Christianity was not at all about political clout or transforming society. It’s unfortunate that so many people today, both inside and outside the church, have the impression that it is.

Political clout, no; transforming society- yes. Are you seriously saying that ancient Roman & Palestinian & modern American societies couldn’t be improved by applying the teachings of JC & the Apostles, or that they didn’t think that as individual lives were transformed that social orders were to follow?

One could also make an argument RE political clout- JC & his followers were executed as threats to the established orders. political as well as religious. To say “Jesus Is Lord” indicated to the Priesthood that he & not they were the custodians of the will of YHWH and indicated to the Romans that he & not Caesar was Lord.

RE the OP- America may well be moving to a post-C’tian Society. In a very real sense, America & indeed England & Europe, West & East, & Russia are still pre-C’tian in that they have no yet realized the fulness of what a Christian Society.
However, as Jesus taught, when a nation fails to be faithful to Him, the Kingdom shall be taken from it & given to another that is fruitful.

[GorillaMan]

@Evil Captor

@smiling bandit

The problem in Europe does not seem to be about religious belief, but that so many people have ceased believing in anything: religion, politics, ideology. It’s easier, after the horrors of the 20th century, to just numb yourself with mindless pleasures and comforts.

Surely we have some European Dopers who will address this point.

OK

Firstly, I do not accept for a moment that Europe’s loss of ideological beliefs has been greater than Americas. The opposite, in fact. It seems that all it takes to be on the fringes of American attitudes is to have anything other than a devotion to libertarian free-market attitudes. (Yes, I’m using a broad brush, but this debate needs it!) There’s a far wider political spectrum active and prominent in Europe.

Coming back to religion: I see it as being directly connected to the events of the first half of the 20th century. Captain Amazing’s comments earlier in this thread, about America’s lack of official religion, fail to address the fact that the divergence between religious beliefs in the two continents has only occurred in the past few decades.

[BrainGlutton]

@GorillaMan

Captain Amazing’s comments earlier in this thread, about America’s lack of official religion, fail to address the fact that the divergence between religious beliefs in the two continents has only occurred in the past few decades.

Are you sure on that point? From The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius, by George Orwell, 1941 (http://orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_eye):

But in all societies the common people must live to some extent against the existing order. The genuinely popular culture of England is something that goes on beneath the surface, unofficially and more or less frowned on by the authorities. One thing one notices if one looks directly at the common people, especially in the big towns, is that they are not puritanical. They are inveterate gamblers, drink as much beer as their wages will permit, are devoted to bawdy jokes, and use probably the foulest language in the world. They have to satisfy these tastes in the face of astonishing, hypocritical laws (licensing laws, lottery acts, etc. etc.) which are designed to interfere with everybody but in practice allow everything to happen. Also, the common people are without definite religious belief, and have been so for centuries. The Anglican Church never had a real hold on them, it was simply a preserve of the landed gentry, and the Nonconformist sects only influenced minorities. And yet they have retained a deep tinge of Christian feeling, while almost forgetting the name of Christ. The power-worship which is the new religion of Europe, and which has infected the English intelligentsia, has never touched the common people. They have never caught up with power politics. The ‘realism’ which is preached in Japanese and Italian newspapers would horrify them. One can learn a good deal about the spirit of England from the comic coloured postcards that you see in the windows of cheap stationers’ shops. These things are a sort of diary upon which the English people have unconsciously recorded themselves. Their old-fashioned outlook, their graded snobberies, their mixture of bawdiness and hypocrisy, their extreme gentleness, their deeply moral attitude to life, are all mirrored there.

It goes back further than that. When Nietzsche wrote “God is dead,” all he meant was that in Europe, at least among the educated classes, a “Christian consensus” no longer existed, i.e., traditional Christian faith (including its fundamental belief in a cosmic order of which human beings are an essential part) was no longer the presumptive default starting-point of any discussion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead) He could not have written that if he had lived in America during the same period. And today? Maybe, maybe not.

[BrainGlutton]

@FriarTed

Are you seriously saying that ancient Roman & Palestinian & modern American societies couldn’t be improved by applying the teachings of JC & the Apostles . . .?

:rolleyes: Of course our society could not be improved by those teachings. Not unless you kept St. Paul’s writings out of it, and even then it would be doubtful.

[GorillaMan]

@BrainGlutton

Are you sure on that point? From The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius, by George Orwell, 1941 (George Orwell: Part I: England Your England):…

What’s being talked about there is whether or not the major religion had a strong hold over everyday behaviour. And it did not - but I don’t see that religion presently has a strong hold over many aspects of American everyday life, either.

It goes back further than that. When Nietzsche wrote “God is dead,” all he meant was that in Europe, at least among the educated classes, a “Christian consensus” no longer existed, i.e., traditional Christian faith (including its fundamental belief in a cosmic order of which human beings are an essential part) was no longer the presumptive default starting-point of any discussion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead) He could not have written that if he had lived in America during the same period. And today? Maybe, maybe not.

Oh, come on, just because Nietzsche wrote it, it doesn’t mean the populace all shared his views!

[BrainGlutton]

@GorillaMan

What’s being talked about there is whether or not the major religion had a strong hold over everyday behaviour.

No, he was talking about belief, not behavior – and that separated Britain from America, then and now.

@GorillaMan

Oh, come on, just because Nietzsche wrote it, it doesn’t mean the populace all shared his views!

Of course not, he was talking about the educated elite. Was he wrong? But in the U.S., even the “intellectuals,” if you can call them that, were still almost entirely Christian at that period. A Robert Ingersoll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ingersoll) was a really odd duck in America, and would not have been in Europe.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@FriarTed

Political clout, no; transforming society- yes. Are you seriously saying that ancient Roman & Palestinian & modern American societies couldn’t be improved by applying the teachings of JC & the Apostles, or that they didn’t think that as individual lives were transformed that social orders were to follow?

Actually, I was considering adding a qualification to that effect: that Christianity was/is about transforming individuals, and that if enough people change, society will, as a result, change.

[BrainGlutton]

@Thudlow Boink

Actually, I was considering adding a qualification to that effect: that Christianity was/is about transforming individuals, and that if enough people change, society will, as a result, change.

No . . . that’s what Christianity evolved into, after it gradually become apparent that Jesus wasn’t coming back in the near future. But at first, it was purely an apocalyptic and salvationist religion, concerned only with the individual soul’s getting right with God and winning a place in God’s Kingdom, which would bear no resemblance at all to the human condition as anyone living had experienced it.

[SentientMeat]

From a previous thread.

I would also take issue with the premise that Europe is less ideological than the US, and suggest that perhaps the greater diversity of religions is one reason why religion has declined in general: they can’t all be right, and choosing one such dogma from others based on equally outlandish ancient writings may strike many as absurd compared to “none of the above”, especially given the great strides in the last century in explaining the universe and everything in it naturally rather than supernaturally.

[BrainGlutton]

[QUOTE=SentientMeatI would also take issue with the premise that Europe is less ideological than the US, and suggest that perhaps the greater diversity of religions is one reason why religion has declined in general: they can’t all be right, and choosing one such dogma from others based on equally outlandish ancient writings may strike many as absurd compared to “none of the above”, especially given the great strides in the last century in explaining the universe and everything in it naturally rather than supernaturally.[/QUOTE]

But that begs the question: Why has the decline of religious belief been so much less marked in the U.S., where the menu of religions available is longer than practically anywhere else?

[Sevastopol]

There are large commercial benefits to keeping the population in a state of ignorance and superstition.

[Der_Trihs]

@BrainGlutton

But that begs the question: Why has the decline of religious belief been so much less marked in the U.S., where the menu of religions available is longer than practically anywhere else?

Seperation of church and state. It’s not as strong as it’s should be, but it’s stronger than it’s been for most of Europe’s history. Our idea of religious violence is gay bashing and abortion clinic bombings, not the Inquisition and the Thirty Years War.

Religion in America simply hasn’t been given the same opportunity to discredit itself. If, for example, Fred Phelps gained dictatorial powers to enforce his beliefs and kill those he disliked for the next 50 years, I doubt the survivors would think well of religion at all.