Perhaps this belongs in GD because the subject matter is so controversial – but it’s really factual question, so I’m posting it in GQ. Moderators, move it if you think it’s appropriate.
I’ve got another GQ-or-possibly-GD thread going right now: “Is Britain “post-Christian”? What about the rest of Europe?” Posters so far seem to agree that Europe is now much less religious than the United States, in terms of belief in traditional religious systems.
But is it really? Most Americans still self-identify as Christians and go to church, and the religious right has enormous political power here. But is the United States really a “Christian nation” in the sense that it used to be?
The following comes from The Next American Nation, by Michael Lind (New York: Free Press Paperbacks, 1996), pp. 278-280:
You’ll never get a factual answer until you set unambiguous criteria. America is certainly different than it used to be but that statement doesn’t say anything significant. The gross generalizations in your quote are GD fodder for sure.
I think this a GD question as it hinges on the definition of “Christian”. What is “Christian” to some isn’t to others. The only actual facts (GQ territory) we have is from census data, which doesn’t split those particular hairs. So, all that’s left is subjective opinion.
But I’ll throw in my two cents anyway. I think that self identification as Christian should count as Christian. Christian is a pretty broad term and the interpretations vary from denomination to denomination. In my view, if you think Jesus was the son of God, then you are a Christian, end of story. This would include people ranging from some Unitarians all the way to the fire and brimstone likes of Jack Chick. If we use that definition of Christian, then yes, the U.S. is overwhelmingly Christian. Mr. Lind can claim that many aren’t really Christians, but I don’t buy it. It’s similar to the baptists saying that the Catholics aren’t really Christian because they have a different theological interpretation of the relevant texts.i
After all, Mr. Lind does not speak for all Christians and his interpretation is debatebale (to use too kind a word).
But the question is not whether Americans are more or less christian. but with America is a more or less christian nation. My interpretation of this is that the OP wants to know about christianity as it relates to American government law & policy.
But reading more closely, I may be wrong, as the comment about Europe indicates an interest in the citizens rather than the govenment.
In conclusion, I believe you need to sharpen your question. Are you talking about people or government?
According to that, 62.8% of the US believes in God. 33.5% believe in the literal truth of the bible. So it would seem you have a large minority who are strong christian believers, and a majority who are religious.
Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists rather than Christians, and that is the way the Constitution lines up as well. I, for one, am not comfortable with very open, liberal definitions of Christian - John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg are heretics, in my opinion. I think if someone thinks of themself as a Christian, but rejects orthodox Christian theology or has heretical views it is more correct to consider them Deist (or, perhaps, Christian-like ).
Technically, with no official state religion, this is not a Christian nation. Practically, it operates as a Judeo-Christian influenced nation, and so do perhaps a majority of its citizens, without the condition of there necessarily being an actual commitment to Christ himself.
The United States of America was never a Christian nation. Many of the founding fathers were Deists, but certainly not Christians. Assertions this nation was founded on Christianity are mistaken, no matter how badly the religious right wishes it was so.
In their own words:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”–from the Treaty of Tripoli signed by John Adams.
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry…The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”–Thomas Jefferson
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”–Thomas Jefferson, written in his Bible
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”–Thomas Paine
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”–Ethan Allen
I intended to start a discussion on the religious character of the American people of today. The political results are important and should be discussed, but I didn’t intend them as the main focus of the thread. In colonial times, when their were Deists and such, a majority of Americans almost certainly were “Christian” in the sense of believing that Christianity was the one true religion and all the world should be converted to it. That way of thinking had an influence on the impulse to colonize the New World, it led to several British colonies which were founded on religious principles, and it continued to exert influence into the 19th and 20th centuries, providing a lot of impetus behind abolitionism, the colonization of Liberia, the missionary movements, and prohibitionism. But whatever cultural or political influence this kind of Christianity has in America in the 21st century, it will be a minority influence, if Lind is correct. (Probably a very large, well-organized, and vocal minority influence, but still minority.) That’s what I’m submitting for debate. Is he correct? And what are the results for American social and cultural life in the future?
My thinking is, even if we reach a point where a majority of Americans are no longer Christian in their beliefs or practices or church affiliations – which appears to be the case in the United Kingdom today, according to the other thread – then the United States, like the United Kingdom, will still be a Christian country in the sense that it is a product of Western, Christian civilization and its values and outlook on life have been shaped by Christian moral sensibilities. In the same sense, Russia is still a Christian country (although the form of Christianity that shaped its culture is rather different from American Protestantism), and China is a Confucian-Buddhist culture, even under Communist rule. Practically all human cultures, before the 20th century, have had some widely shared set of religious beliefs, and the shape this gives a culture cannot be erased unless the civilization collapses utterly, as Rome did, and China never did.
I saw the part in the original quote that was meant to back this up, but frankly – Muncie, Indiana? I’m really worried about any community that believes Buddhists pray to the same god as described in the Judeo-Christian tree. :smack:
In any event, 1924 is, like the larch, quite a long way away from colonial times. New England was dominated at some times by Puritans, true, but it seems significant that so many founding fathers were not strict Christians. I’ll grant that they weren’t exactly representative of your average Joseph, but I’m afraid I won’t swallow the notion that the vast majority of Americans were fundamentalist Christians without a (relatively unbiased) cite. I know that this is a view popularly held by Christians, but I have yet to see concrete facts to support it.
Of course, I haven’t spent a whole lot of time looking, either. I wouldn’t be surprised if this were proven to be the case, I just can’t let it go that easily.
I’m not sure where I fall relative to the norm. I’m a devout athiest. I’m a firm believer in the moral and ethical stance of the traditionally christian point of view.
I got into a real knock-down drag-out a few yaers ago with another stauch athiest. My contention was simply that our laws were based on our morals. This seemed pretty obvious to me, but I’m pretty sure I lost the arguement. Not (in my opinion) because I was wrong, but because my antagonist couldn’t bring himself to admit that he had morals. This from one of the most moral people I know. He was just too attached to the idea that morals and religion were inseparable. He couldn’t admit that his behavior was dictated by a religion.
America is certainly a christian-driven society. Many of our founding fathers where non-christian and very possibly anti-christian for what I’ve seen in the way of quotes from them. But even now, we live in a subculture of the world whose primary influence is derived from the christian ethic, whether inspired by the church or by the neighbors who go to church. I have no problem with that. I like that. But I know that what I like is what I’m comfortable with, and what I’m comfortable with is a western, and very christian set of morals and ethics.
So basically I’m an athiest with a christian’s sensibilities.
My OPINION is that the average american holds the basic sensibilities of a christian.
My sensibiliies tell me that to be a non-christian in america is to be a little put off by that, but for the most part to agree with the same basic tenants that this society has built up around itself.
I would rather we were all athiests, but I rather like that there’s something to keep the jerks in line too.
But we are definitely living in a christian-inspired society, if not a christian one (I think it’s still a christian one, not just inspired by christianity, but I don’t know, which I think was the what the original post was asking).
I look at it as a chicken or the egg problem. It’s unanswerable. Did western morals and philosophy stem from western religions, or did the western religions stem from the western culture itself?
The answer, I think, is that they evolved together - each feeding off the other.
Dolas, I’m curious. Which “moral sensibilities”, ethics and values do you ascribe to Chrisitianity that cannot be found in other world religions?
And then there is the question of which denomination of Christianity? At the time of this country’s founding, a major culture war was goign on between the Puritans and the Universalists. Which denominations’ values won out?
Our money has “In God we trust” on it (and lets not kid ourselves, we know what “God” that is)
Christmas is a federal holiday
Something like 80%+ of all citizens self identify as Christian (I’m including Catholics and Protestants here)
There has never been a non-Christian president yet
I’m sure there are many others. I’d say that the US is a Christian nation that struggles to keep religion out of government, but that the Christain faith is so pervasive and dominant in our society that that is a very hard thing to do.
I’m not preaching, Bosda. At least, I’m not preaching Christianity, or lamenting its decline. I’m an atheist and I wish a lot more Americans were atheists.
most “chrstians” in the US are \christian wanna be’s they only practice their faith when it suits them and the rest of the time it means nothing…this is just my opinion and if i have offended anyone i am sorry but in the town i am from this is the way it is
