Maybe I’m too privileged to see what is going on, but I can’t imagine telling an academically strong and pragmatically-minded young person to not bother going to college. I could see myself trying to convince them to major in something marketable and to save money by going to a community college or living at home (fuck the “real” college experience). But I don’t think I’d tell someone that a college degree isn’t worth it unless I felt they had a special talent or they just sucked at academics.
I love what I do. I would not be able to do what I do without a college degree, and I don’t see that ever changing.
Do you think we will ever see middle-class parents en mass dissuading their kids from going to college? Have you ever done this?
I certainly haven’t, but I know plenty of people near me, all middle-class, who if they didn’t argue against college were not supportive of it. In fact before ACA some sent their kids to the inexpensive community college solely to keep them on their insurance. The kids didn’t really attend and the parents didn’t care.
Some of these kids, when persuaded to give a shit, did fine.
All this started long before college in parental disinterest in academics at lower levels. If you give your kids the impression that school is a waste of time, it is not surprising that college will be seen as a waste also.
Yes, trade schools are really good for those with that bent, but none of the kids I’m thinking of were interested in that path.
I hope that we can at least kill the idea of going to college simply because it’s “what you’re supposed to do” or that you’ll never get a good job without a degree in something. I’m in my 30’s and my mom still keeps pushing me to go back to school. For what? I have no idea. Just, y’know, get those pre-reqs done at least. Never mind the fact that I do not have career aspirations that require college and I already did a year of trade school because I’m much more inclined to look at a trade career for long-term goals. If that changes I can go back and take classes that will actually further my goals.
College is a great resource for careers that actually need further education, but I strongly feel it should not be pushed on teens and young adults just because. Encouraging young people to take on debt if they don’t really have an academic path in mind feels irresponsible, and it happens constantly.
Even though they don’t need them, a lot of jobs require a college degree. so until that changes I don’t see a true backlash.
I once saw a job where you were supposed to scoop dogfood into small bags and carry them over to the quality control lab. They wanted a BS in biology to do that.
We should be preparing all high schoolers for their life after high school. For some of them, that means college, but not everyone. There are still plenty of perfectly good jobs you can get without a college degree, so let’s prepare at least some students for those jobs.
Yeah, I sort of hate that kind of thinking. My old job wanted managers to have a college degree… in anything. We never had someone with a business or finance related degree - philosophy majors, comparative religion, teaching, acting, nutrition. On average they left after a couple of years, having gotten something on their resume.
I wonder if education tourism would start to be a thing, rather like medical tourism is. It strikes me that it must be starting to be pretty competitive to look at a good overseas university, even at international rates.
For instance, my alma mater, Edinburgh, is a pretty good university, ranked here23rd in the world, just behind Duke and Michigan. Currently, a year’s tuition at overseas rates in an Arts-type field like literature, philosophy or history will set you back about GBP19,000 or a little under USD27,000. This compares pretty well with, well, Duke itself, which appears to be charging about USD53,000.
I know there are other barriers - for instance, you probably can’t get loans so easily from American lenders for o/s education. But it strikes me that that’s a big enough cost differential that it actually might be worth people’s while to flee the country for education, if it’s the sort of thing that occurs to them as a possible strategy in the first place.
no, the jobs don’t require a degree. the hiring companies just use that as a filter. And we’ve contributed to that by considering anyone in a trade (especially if they have a name tag on their shirt) as a useless shit-kicker.
you miss the point. a hell of a lot of essential trades are jobs which can’t be learned in a classroom. Sitting in a classroom won’t make you a good plumber; you need to actually be out there building or fixing shit. Sitting in a classroom won’t make you a good millwright; you need to actually be out there fixing and maintaining machines.
I’m a degreed mechanical engineer, but I started my “career path” when I was 15 and got certified as an auto mechanic. And it’s given me the insight to know that just because someone is skilled and knowledgeable in one field, that doesn’t mean they know one damn bit about another field. Even if they think they do.
as an example, when I was 16 (as a licensed auto mechanic) I had a local doctor bring his car in because it was “making noise.” the engine was trashed. He was convinced we were trying to rip him off even though he didn’t know he needed to change his car’s oil to keep it running. he called me all sorts of names because he was obviously smarter than me, and I was just some stupid kid feeding him a line of bullshit.
this, from a guy who didn’t realize his car needed oil changes.
and honestly, even as a seasoned engineer, I have far too many days where I wish I was still a mechanic. even with the assholes, most of the time I was able to fix people’s problems and make their day better.
I teach 4th grade in a Title I district, so college is a pipe dream to most of the students in the schools. The district encourages college, but are beginning to see that the investment in college promotion is wasted. I tell my students that they can have the career they want if they are willing to work hard for it. I encourage them to look into trade schools as well as college. I don’t ever say so, but I hope that they realize they are not destined (cursed?) to have the same jobs their parents have, which is an awful but necessary industry.
I tell as many people as I can about the Mike Rowe Works Foundation’s scholarships for trade school.
If you don’t want a career that requires a degree, like education, sciences, or others, than college is just indoctrination and a waste of money. I f we had kids who wanted to go to college, I’d be looking at Patrick Henry College or Hillsdale.
And most classes for the trades aren’t just sitting in a classroom. There are high-school courses where you actually repair real cars, or build real structures, or solder real electronics, or the like.
I’m a Registered Nurse. Nursing is in an odd position, we are called “professional” and yet we literally deal with poop. I try very, very hard to live up to the professional end of things, while still dealing compassionately with the actual bodily functions, including poop and whatever else comes my way.
I got my degree from a community college and would recommend that to anyone who wishes to pursue a nursing degree.
I feel we need more people who actually know how to DO things.
I can’t speak for CelticKnot, but I think the idea is that the kids are from low-income families, so ending up with the same jobs as their parents just means continuing a life of poverty. Not really the kind of thing kids dream of.
My father hammered into my head that when he was 18 he was “shoving rolls of newsprint around” at a printing company, and expected me to get a job that wouldn’t involve manual labor.
In any case, the OP explicitly said “I can’t imagine telling an academically strong and pragmatically-minded young person to not bother going to college.” which doesn’t actually sound like talking about plumbers.
If you’re saying “people who want to learn trades should go to trade school, not college”, well, I agree. Or even “middle class people should be open to their kids doing a trade rather than a white-collar job”.
Saying higher education is unnecessary for white-collar jobs might be true, depending on the white-collar job involved. But jobs for which it is helpful, are the sort of jobs middle class families are angling for.
This is also a whole different ball of wax from “should shift manager at K-mart be a job which requires a 4-year degree”, which I agree is … unhelpful.
Quite frankly, I’d be surprised to see any kind of a backlash against anything fostered by the establishment. People see the “invisible hand” as the one that feeds them in a precarious existence, and few will be willing to bite it.
People always talk about the proverbial plumber making $120,000/yr and the kid with a B.A. making bumpkiss at the local coffee shop. But the plumber making $120k/yr is not an average plumber: he’s smart, he’s a self-starter, an entrepreneur, the sort of person that works hard and looks for opportunities and when he sees them, he’s brave enough and hard-working enough to make the most of them. The kid with a a B.A. who can’t figure out what to do with his life and drifts into a job at a coffee shop wouldn’t have been that plumber. And if that plumber had a B.A, I kinda suspect he’d be making even more as a professional.
Now, I’m open to the idea that some people want to be plumbers; that different people have different personalities, and for some college and a professional career just isn’t what they want, even though they have the drive and the ambition to be successful. But the kid who doesn’t have enough drive or ambition for anything at all isn’t going to be a rock star plumber.
I work with a fair number of both college students and dropouts/never enrolled. Those who’ve dropped out don’t see the use for even an associates “because it’s a waste of money I’m going to have to pay back.” In a couple of cases grades weren’t either good enough to transfer to a 4-year university or requirements were such that they’d have to chase them down at another school to get the credit “and who wants to do that?” Those who never enrolled have been working all along, hoping to get FT: Either they’re not academically talented, not interested, or need to earn $ to help their families. The ones who are enrolled either work minimal hours or they work evenings and/or weekends, maybe a day or two during the week here or there. They’re all chomping at the bit to live their next life chapter.