december, would you agree that it would be a fair assessment of your character that people have used actuarial data to commit major crimes against groups in the past, so therefore anyone who claims to be an actuary must be tied to major crime schemes?
If not, then can we get rid of the stereotypes and debate the issue?
For the record, I have the decidedly non-politically correct opinion that ethnic profiling can be used when “racial” characteristics but not the personal identity of a suspect for a crime is known – e.g., if the witnesses to a robbery describe the man committing the crime as a 6-foot heavyset black man wearing blue jeans at the time of the crime, then police looking for 6-foot heavyset black men is not unjust stereotyping but narrowing the search for the particular individual. (Courtesy by the police to the innocent 6-foot heavyset black men stopped by patrols who were at prayer meetings, dating their girlfriends, or otherwise occupied in their lawful pursuits in the process goes without saying.)
Whilst accepting that certain individuals have perpetrated scams as a way of making a living, that is a far cry from the assertation that the Wise County Sheriff’s Office makes: That an entire race of people, numbering approximately 10 million (with around 1 million in North America), are an organized crime family whose world revolves around a lifestyle of thievery.
Also, as a Romanichal, I’d have to say that the education system I went through never valued me or my culture. It’s not to be unexpected that Roma will display a reluctance towards sending their children (male and female) to school, knowing how they will be treated while there.
Homebrew: Yeah, I know you did but it was the first stereotype I thought of.
Here in the UK, ‘Traveller’ is the PC term to describe anyone who lives a particular lifestyle. It is pretty much interchangable with ‘Gypsy’ though. This gives us the situation where not only are the Romani called the wrong name but other groups are called the same damn name too. About the only thing we’re never called is Romani. (Some do try, bless 'em, but they spell it Romany and pronounce it wrong).
Kal , the U.S. media has been abuzz regarding a woman who was videotaped beating her child in a parking lot; the story is on all the major news websites. Evidently, she is an “Irish Gypsy” with a lot of prior convictions, and is connected to a Texas “clan” involved with crime, a clan which currently is not cooperating with police on providing the whereabouts of this woman.
So, unfortunately, I think you (and we) will be hearing more negative news about the Gypsies in the US media (especially Texas) in the days to come.
In my mind, racial profiling is policy, whereas stereotyping is supposedly descriptive. A lot of stereotypes are totally bogus. OTOH there are some cultural characteristics that do have general validity. What I’m asking is whether the alleged characteristics of Roma culture are fallacious or valid to some some degree. If the latter, how widespread are they?
Note that even if a higher than average percentage of a group exhibit certain behavior, it can still be true that the percentage exhibiting that behavior is only a small minority of the group.
The OP’s cite includes a story that’s also mentioned in the novel 32 Cadillacs. The story alleges that
If some children are really raised this way, that could impact their behavior. So, how true is it?
Disclaimer: I had my pocket picked while on vacation in the Paris
Metro in 1982 by an organized group of very young children. I had earllier avoided a similar pickpocketing by a group of children waiting at a ticket machine. I cannot prove it, but I believe both groups were Gypsies.
Incidentally, Wise County offered some good suggestions. Of course, they could have offered these good suggestions without mentioning Gypsies
Shit, I’m much more concerned about the “Nazi methamphetamines” that Wise County’s no doubt impeccable police force wants us to watch out for. I mean, not only are they potentially addictive, they also killed six million Jews. After all, these guys are the gummint, they must know things we average citizens don’t. right?
Wait, didn’t the Nazis (and their stimulant brethren, apparently) kill a bunch of Roma, as well? Me brain hurts.
I have only heard that (and similar stories) in books written by non-Roma. If you want to find out more about Romani culture I suggest you read more books on the subject, preferably by Roma authors.
Replace the ‘could’ in that paragraph with ‘should’ and I’d be close to agreeing with you.
Off the top of my head, I’d say the main Roma author would have to be Ian Hancock. He’s a professor at the University of Texas.
Not Roma, but very worthy reading: Thomas Acton and Donald Kenrick.
If you can track it down (because you ain’t having my copy) ‘Dirty Gyppo’ by Tom Odley (a Romanichal) is a book of poetry that I am very fond of.
Weeping Violins: The Gypsy Tragedy in Europe is very hard reading as it deals with the Holocaust. Silvia Folts, one of the authors is the daughter of a Rom Holocaust survivor. (I don’t recommend that december read it because it is somewhat critical of Jewish leaders and Holocaust experts for disregarding the experiences of the Roma and Sinti). He may like to do a little research into the Domari though, they are ‘Gypsies’ who live in the Middle East and are basically treated like shit by the majority population. I can see him doing a bit of pro-Gypsy Arab bashing in GD.
One of the best sources for information about Roma is The Patrin Web Journal. Apart from it’s own articles, it links to most Roma rights groups and has a very large list of recommended books for further reading.
I guess Manfri Fredrick Wood mentions it in his autobiography “Life of a Romany Gypsy” I haven’t read the book, though, and don’t know if the book is accurate or just crap.
Chances are it was aimed at members of the Gypsy Lore Society or those enamoured with George Borrow’s popular image of the ‘Noble Romany Rogue’.
Sometimes, with older books about the Romani people, you have to read it very carefully to spot the difference between telling self-styled Gypsyologists a bunch of crap that fits into their little image of what a ‘Romany’ is and the truth.
Well, or Wood heard the story and believed it was authentic, but from what I’ve been able to find out about the book, it does seem to glorify the “noble rogue” image.
Also, as far as I can tell, Hamilton doesn’t seem to think it’s authentic, and I defer to him on matters like that. On the other hand, Roma have been in Europe for about 700 years, spread throughout the continent, and it’s not impossible that some group somewhere told the story, and then it survived because of retellings by non-Roma, because it supported their prejudices that Roma were natural thieves.
Well, if you call providing a bit of support to the Romani - A people who have and still do suffer from persecution - going off the deep end, then I’d have to disagree with you.
I think he’s a little more reliable than Joe Gores.
I have no problem with Clark’s statement quoted on this board. I have huge problems with many other oddball positions he has taken. E.g., read this article from Salon,
Why do I have this image of **Kal ** looking just like Brad Pitt in *Snatch *
The websites you provided are very informative. I will confess, I’ve always been interested in the entire Gypsy thing, but have only heard bad things, which, naturally, I refuse to believe.
Er…No. I don’t look like Brad Pitt in the movie Snatch: As a kid I had an uncanny resemblance to Mowgli from Disney’s version of The Jungle Book, nowadays I’m more like a mutated hybrid of Lovejoy and Mick Foley.
Now Belker from Hill Street Blues looked just like me dad. A shorter, calmer, kinder, less violent and more mentally stable version of him.
Glad you’ve been learning something about the Romani people, we are an infinitely interesting race.
[slight hijack] Kal, have you ever read any of Edward Hoch’s Romani mystery stories? They appear regularly in Ellery Queen’s Mystery Magazine; I don’t know if they’ve ever been collected into an anthology. They’re set in Romania and the “detective” is a Romani king (whose name escapes me at the moment). Many of the stories involve interaction between the local authorities and Romani. I’ve found them quite interesting, as I do most of Hoch’s work, but I’ve occasionally wondered how authentic the background is.
[/hijack]
